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Peter Hicks Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1983
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 1
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"It's interesting that the political views of JBF members, at least those bothering to comment, tend to uniform opposition to Trump...." ************************************ This forum too is an echo chamber, and not a random slice of the population. I am a Christian for example, but I have given up on commenting in any of the recurring threads on here about religion.
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Koroush Ghazi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 1681
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 2
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Robert Cosgrove wrote:
Why the JBF opinion is relatively monolithic in a country where opinion is divided is, as I say, interesting. |
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Hardly surprising. Let's be blunt: JBF has a much higher proportion of literate, intelligent people than the general population.
Robert Cosgrove wrote:
Given that the economy has now been expanding for essentially ten straight years, albeit more robustly for the last two and one half... |
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False, but nice try. The economy has not been growing stronger under Trump. The recovery surged under Obama, and has generally been declining under Trump as Obama-era policies are replaced with moronic trade wars, and momentum drops off:
See also this CNBC Article for example:
QUOTE:
Throughout the 2016 campaign and since, the president and his party have vowed to kick-start tepid Obama-era economic growth. New government data show that Trump, too, has failed to reach the 3 percent promised land, according to one major metric. The Commerce Department’s Bureau of Economic Analysis measured 2018 growth at 2.9 percent, matching the peak Obama enjoyed in 2015. For the rest of the president’s term, economic forecasters agree, that number will decline. |
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Plus this Bloomberg analysis of Trump's relative economic performance as President.
QUOTE:
By these measures the economy under President Bill Clinton was No. 1
President Barack Obama, who took office in 2009 during the worst recession since the Great Depression, left in 2017 after the second-biggest improvement.
President Ronald Reagan is No. 3 (1981-1989), followed by Presidents George H.W. Bush (1989-1993) and Jimmy Carter (1977-1981).
That leaves Trump and President George W. Bush, whose years in office ended in 2009 with the financial crisis that plunged the economy into its deepest decline in 80 years. While the No. 6 Trump economy shows no signs of replicating the disaster of the No. 7 Bush economy, he already lags Carter’s performance. |
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Trump has done nothing but undermine the US (and global) economy with his uninformed blowhard rhetoric. He's massively increased your national debt, twice having to negotiate to raise the debt ceiling (and nearly failing to even do that properly!) to fund regressive unnecessary tax cuts, he's crippling your health care system, your education system, and the environment. He's constantly trying to provoke wars. He has created division and anger in communities.
The Democrats don't "need a recession" (but it's coming, don't worry, thanks to Trump) - even a full-on nuclear war started by Trump wouldn't be enough to dissuade his numpty supporters. What we really need is 40 days and nights of rain, and a do-over for the human race.
Edited by Koroush Ghazi on 23 May 2019 at 8:23am
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Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4505
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 3
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There are a great number of people here on the JBF that leverage facts to form opinion and point to example when explaining what they like and dislike about comic book art. This process of leveraging facts and examples when forming opinions serves well regarding politics.
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Steve De Young Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008 Location: United States Posts: 3512
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 9:20am | IP Logged | 4
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Here's what the Democrats have to lose with impeachment and acquittal:
It will be the most powerful possible move to rally Trump's base before the 2020 elections. He's already started the narrative that the Democrats are just after him because they're mad they lost in 2016. Even though Trump is stonewalling Congress to keep them from getting anything done, the narrative next year will be that Congress has done absolutely nothing to help the American people because they're too busy trying to unseat Trump. Then he'll claim credit for the economy etc. etc.
The reason this narrative will work is that it will stoke the fires of Trump's base, and frankly none of the current Democratic candidates excite anyone about anything. Plus, they're all rushing to the middle so there will be as little contrast as possible. Trump will be saying, "The Democrats in Congress have done nothing to help you." And the eventual center right Democratic nominee won't be promising to do much of anything either.
It will be Kerry/Bush all over again. No matter how much everyone hates the Republican, if the Democrat puts you into a coma, he isn't going to win.
What the Democrats in Congress should be doing is passing another bill every day to change things for regular people. Medicare for all. Workers' rights guarantees. Student debt relief. Infrastructure programs. And then let the Senate kill them or the President veto them. Then you give the Democratic nominee a long list of things to say, "Here are all of the good things and benefits you would have today if it weren't getting stopped by the Republicans. This is why you need to vote Democrat."
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 9:43am | IP Logged | 5
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Robert C. - "It's interesting that the political views of JBF members, at least those bothering to comment, tend to uniform opposition to Trump"
Robert, there are certainly those who support Mr. Trump who have stated so on this forum. But IT SEEMS that those people feel that they are being ganged up on, or insulted, or ignored, or being dismissed as fools. It would appear that they find responses to their comments as contrary and even argumentative. And so, they feel abused and unwanted, and rarely (if ever) return to comment.
Of course there are contrary opinions... that's what makes a horse race. It seems that too many times, Trump supporters present opinions or conclusions, but do not follow punctually when asked for proof or rationale. Some answers don't answer the requests, some replies are misleading, and some are replies as if these challenges are personal insults. And on occasion, I guess they are.
But when one is asked, "Can you prove that Trump has improved the economy with tariffs?" and the reply is, "It's obvious. Look at the newspapers", it's hard to treat that with appropriate seriousness.
Speaking for myself - and, I hope, a few other board members - I'm willing to listen and be convinced. I might be wrong, and my opinions CAN be changed; but not by unreasonable emotional replies (e.g., "See? You're against Trump and you'll NEVER understand the good he's doing!")
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Brandon Frye Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 November 2004 Posts: 1319
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
I hope the proceedings uncover enough to make him unelectable |
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It's possible that's the real intent behind all of this. I hope not though. Because if it is the intent, it then becomes opposition research which should not be done on the tax payers dime.
If the Dems want to uncover as much dirt Trump as they can to win the 2020 election, by all means do so. That's how the game is played. But it's also something that should be done using campaign money and not subsidized by the American people.
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Marc Baptiste Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3655
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Posted: 23 May 2019 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 7
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The Democrats' biggest worry is this: regardless of WHO they choose as their nominee, they are up against a candidate (Trump) whose base is as fired up as they can POSSIBLY be about him - they would stand outside for countless hours in line in nuclear fallout to vote for this man! Although a young man, I was around for the Reagan Revolution and the adoration for the candidate back then was NOTHING like this!
Democrats have NEVER faced ANYTHING like this --- and yet mark my words, if Trump wins re-election there will be a wailing and gnashing of teeth and absolutely sincere screams of "HOW could we possibly lose against such a loser!!"
Marc
Edited by Marc Baptiste on 23 May 2019 at 5:56pm
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Peter Hicks Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1983
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 8:58am | IP Logged | 8
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In the last three elections, the number of people who voted Republican for President was exactly the same at 62 million. McCain, Romney, or Trump, it didn't matter, they got 62 million votes.
But the number of people who voted Democrat for President varied quite a bit, with Obama first getting 68 million votes, then re-elected with 66 million, and then Hillary getting 65 million.
So 3 million people who voted to first elect Obama (and help give him a Senate super majority) could not be bothered to get off the couch and vote for Hillary.
Based on the Democrat turnout for the mid terms, Democrats are not sitting on the couch anymore. As long as the Democrats run a fair competition to pick their nominee (I think some Bernie supporters stayed home after it was revealed the DNC was favoring Hillary), and the nominee is generally likable and not under FBI investigation, then I think things favour the Democrats for the White House.
Yes, Trump's base is vocal and adores him, but they would also vote for whoever the Republican party nominated. But Trump's ongoing dismal approval rating makes it hard to believe that he will attract many independent swing voters.
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Marc Baptiste Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3655
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 9:04am | IP Logged | 9
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Peter,
Please, please, please, try to remember our ELECTORAL COLLEGE system - those extra 3 million plus votes could EASILY be contained within California alone!
We are NOT a pure democracy.
Marc
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133457
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 9:35am | IP Logged | 10
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Yup. Doesn’t matter HOW MANY vote. It matters WHERE they vote. Some states are more equal than others.
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Brian Floyd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 8627
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 11
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Either do away with the Electoral College, or change the law so that if you win it but not the popular vote, you're automatically a one-termer.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 24 May 2019 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 12
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"could not be bothered to get off the couch and vote"
Not true if you look at the increasing voter roll purges in Republican controlled states along with dirty tricks type messaging of fraudulent poll location changes, as well as real changes to make it very hard for poorer people with transportation limitations to reach the locations. Stuff that should be front page top story reporting if one cares about a real democracy. Instead; more easy blame the victim from the lazy uninformed of the information age. Sorry, calling that one as I see it. Coming down like a ton of bricks on the poor and working people while helping a corrupt elite stay entrenched... so quit buying their con game; you put the swamp thing in to supposedly drain the swamp, which shows a lack of seeking real information versus fantasy junk like that moronic Apprentice show (that set this huge child up as the new big daddy protector figure).
Impeach because it's simply what realistically should've happened by now to the least transparent, in bed with foreign enemies and criminals, billionaire victim populist, joke businessman candidate.
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 24 May 2019 at 10:11am
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