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Kevin Pierce
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | 1  

I read some stuff on the net, is there a trade of the early Miracleman [Moore/Gaiman] stories? What ever happen to this character, last I heard he was going to appear in a Spawn title.

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Peter Svensson
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 2  

There are trade paperbacks of the Miracleman comics, but they are all out of print and thus expensive and hard to get ahold of. Reprints aren't forthcoming because the rights to the series are tied up in Legal Limbo.

Todd McFarlane thought that he had the rights to Miracleman, and planned to have him appear in Spawn. After a court battle with Neil Gaiman it became clear that he doesn't, and the character who was going to be revealed as Miracleman is now "The Man of Miracles" who bares a resemblance to Miracleman but isn't him. No. Not at all.

Neil Gaiman hopes to resolve the rights issues and continue the series at Marvel, but the legal limbo that the rights are in is so complicated that I doubt it will happen for some years.

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Kevin Pierce
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | 3  

Gaiman want's to take Miracleman to Marvel, will he change the name back to Marvelman?

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Brett C. Flechaus
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Posted: 08 June 2006 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | 4  

Is Spawn still being published?
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Kevin Pierce
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 5:04am | IP Logged | 5  

Last I heard, McFarlane was selling the rights to TOP COW comics, haven't heard anything since than

Here is a design I found on the net that MacFarlane did of Miracleman



Edited by Kevin Pierce on 09 June 2006 at 5:42am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:14am | IP Logged | 6  

I have some very fond memories of MarvelMan, from when I was a child in England. I don't suppose I read more than a small handful of stories, but I remember enjoying them. It's a shame, then, to see characters like this fall into the hands of the deconstructionists -- especially someone like Moore, who seems to really have no story to tell beyond "everything you know is a lie".

Some characters, surely, are not meant to be "darkened"?

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Rene Ritchie
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 7  

Can you deconstruct the deconstruct?

There was an issue of Planetary where the main characters attend the funeral of a John Constantine-esque character, with a plethora of 80s British-style characters there to pay respects. They begin to investigate the death and discover a Marvel-Man type character "killed" him (turns out to have faked his death). The "Marvel-Man" character had gone quite mad, lamenting that he had been retconned, been made darker and edgier, had his sexual preference muddled with, and had his origin changed several times to, each more bizarre and kinky than the last. And he maintains he didn't need any of it, and if he hadn't been popular anymore, they should have just let him disappear.

This is all wrapped up in some explination of how Thatcher-era England was the cause of zanny Brithish comics.

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Glenn Moane
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 8  

"It's a shame, then, to see characters like this fall into the hands of the deconstructionists -- especially someone like Moore, who seems to really have no story to tell beyond "everything you know is a lie"."

Isn't that a rather hard generalisation. Moore has written countless comic books that don't use that particular formula. I can only think of his Swamp Thing run that fits with that description.

Have you checked up "Top Ten", "Tomorrow Stories", or "Big Numbers"? None of these books are about established characters, and they are fun books indeed.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:39am | IP Logged | 9  

I can only think of his Swamp Thing run that fits with that description.

***

Apparently you have not read "MiracleMan" or "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" or "Watchmen". To name but three.

Hard generalization? I have trouble thinking of any Moore stories that do not, at their heart, deconstruct characters or genres, and turn them inside out.

Or did James Barrie really intend for Wendy Darling to be in porn comics?

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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:43am | IP Logged | 10  

This is all wrapped up in some explination of how Thatcher-era England was the cause of zanny Brithish comics.

***

Something happened to England after I left. The people who had fought thru the Blitz, survied Dunkirk, produced Shakespeare, carved an empire upon which the sun never set --- morphed into a nation of nihilistic whiners. "Fascist England", a term that could be coined only by someone who had never personally experienced Fascism.

What the %#^# happened?

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Glenn Moane
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:44am | IP Logged | 11  

I have read those comics (except for MiracleMan though), and my point is that I think only Swamp Thing stands out as it fits with your "lie"-concept. Extraordinary Gentlemen, Wathcmen doesn't tell you that the previous stories were false, but expands upon the characters and show new sides of them. Giving, not taking or erasing.

As for Lost Girls, it'd be fun to see how that turned out. Personally, if the comic book is good and give me a great reader experience, I don't care if the topic is a sodomizing Peter Pan or whatever.

Shouldn't we look at a comic book on its own merits, instead of just complaining about whatever "violation" it brings to older characters?
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Gene Kendall
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:48am | IP Logged | 12  

Moore's runs on Captain Britain and WildC.A.T.S. also pulled the "lie" trick.

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Glenn Moane
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:50am | IP Logged | 13  

As stated, if the lie-trick makes a good and interesting comic, what's the problem?

(I haven't read those either by the way. Are they good?)
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Gerry Turnbull
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:54am | IP Logged | 14  

it also has some outstanding art by Gary Leach,Alan Davis and John Totleben.
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Gene Kendall
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:55am | IP Logged | 15  

I liked most of them, but I was only familiar with Captain Britain years after Moore's retcons, and it's not as if I had affection for WildC.A.T.S. in the first place.  If I had already been a regular reader of these titles and then saw what Moore had done, I don't know what I would've thought.  In WildC.A.T.S., Moore revealed that the war between the two alien races stuck on earth had actually been over for hundreds of years, which completely tossed out the whole premise of the series.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:57am | IP Logged | 16  

I haven't read those either by the way. Are they good?

****

Let's see now, how many of Moore's series have you not read, so far? Seems your grounds for dismissing my comment are rapidly approaching non-existant.

Oh -- and "but it's a good story" is the biggest load of crap ever foisted on the reading audience. Any story which deliberately violates core concepts and themes of original materials is not, by definition "a good story". Time some people pulled their heads out of various writers asses and realized that.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 6:58am | IP Logged | 17  

Moore revealed that the war between the two alien races stuck on earth had actually been over for hundreds of years, which completely tossed out the whole premise of the series.

***

Moore is practically the poster boy for the Type B writer -- the one who wants the characters to serve his story, rather than the other way around.

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Glenn Moane
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 7:06am | IP Logged | 18  

Oki, Mister Byrne, I have read the following works of Alan Moore:

Swamp Thing (entire run)
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
Watchmen
Top Ten
Tom Strong
V for Vendetta
From Hell
Various Future Shock tales
Promethea
Smax the Barbarian
Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow?
Albion
Big Numbers
The Ballad of Halo Jones
Batman the Killing Joke

and probably some others that I can't recall right now.

Byrne, your statement was that deconstructionists like Moore HAD NO STORY ELSE TO TELL than "everything you know is a lie". I still think that's a generalization, based on the books of Moore that I have read.

As for your opinion of "good story", let's just agree to disagree. A changing of a core concept isn't always a turn for the worse. I found the Swamp Thing "revamp" to be rather clever, it made up for an interesting read, and I liked it.
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Gerry Turnbull
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 7:11am | IP Logged | 19  

i think the matrix ripped of Miracleman heavily also.

 

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Gerry Turnbull
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 7:12am | IP Logged | 20  

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 21  


 QUOTE:
morphed into a nation of nihilistic whiners

Are we Americans seen like that? ARE we like that?


 QUOTE:
A changing of a core concept isn't always a turn for the worse

If you're changing core concepts, why bother with a pre-existing character at all?

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Matt Linton
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 22  

Considering Jim Lee owned/created WildC.A.T.S and hired Alan Moore to write it, I'd assume he had no problem with what Moore did, so I don't think that qualifies as violating the core concept.
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 23  


 QUOTE:
is there a trade of the early Miracleman [Moore/Gaiman] stories?

Yeah, but you'd have better luck if you just looked for the individual issues.  Trades are running $70+ a pop these days while you can find the Eclipse series for a few bucks apiece (with the exception of #15, but you still come out ahead in the long run).  #1-16 is Moore, #17-25 is Gaiman.  The last two Gaiman issues haven't been reprinted.

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Deepak Ramani
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 7:36am | IP Logged | 24  

 Glenn Kendall wrote:
If I had already been a regular reader of these titles and then saw what Moore had done, I don't know what I would've thought.  In WildC.A.T.S., Moore revealed that the war between the two alien races stuck on earth had actually been over for hundreds of years, which completely tossed out the whole premise of the series.

Do people just hire Moore and tell him to have fun?  Do the editors even ask for proposals or story pitches?  I seem to recall mention that he had proposed essentially his entire Swamp Thing run at the beginning of his work on the series.  (I haven't read this in years, so it's entirely possible that I am misremembering.  I will try to locate the quote I am thinking of.)  I also remember some editor commentary from Supreme indicating that Moore and the editor had talked about his plans for Supreme, which surely experienced the most radical changes of any character under Moore.  (Once again I will try to locate a reference.)

I'm guessing the editors who, nowadays, hire Moore to work on characters he didn't create are probably expecting that he will change them. 

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Rey Madrinan
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Posted: 09 June 2006 at 7:39am | IP Logged | 25  

Core concepts are Core Concepts because they are important to the character. If you take them away, you are left with something completly different, which is fine if the characters is YOUR character. If you decide to mess with something that isn't yours, like, oh, say an established character, then I'd have you say your in the wrong.

If I may be frank, I'm baised since Moore's writing is far to bleak for myself.

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