Greg Allinson wrote: As I've said before, when Walt Simonson pulled the same trick with the Fantastic Four, he was kidding.  It's sad and disheartening how many people I grew up with wished that "The New Fantastic Four" were the "real" team.  Looks like they got their wish, only it was another title that was destroyed in the process...

Shoulda just made them the new Defenders. 

What is resisted by these fans is the simple idea that much of the "change" we saw in the early years of these classic characters was not conscious, thought-out modification. It was, to put it mildly, groping. It was scrabbling around looking for ways to make something that worked work better. Every book, every character, I think, should be allowed about two years of this. But none of it should be seen as actual change. Where the character ends up at the end of those two years is what we should consider the character to have been all along.

Well said- the Fantastic Four are an excellent example of this.  The first few issues do kind of grope around a bit (not as badly as the Hulk, but you've got Central City, Ben talking like any random Tales to Astonish monster escapee, etc.), but by around #7 or #8, you've got the basic premise and characterizations set in stone.  True, some features would continue to evolve for the next few years- Dr. Doom's origin and background, for example- but the characters and concepts were essentially "set" once Alicia was introduced (and, it's worth noting, nothing in Doom's earlier appearences is really irreconcilable with his origin and the Latveria revelation, barring perhaps the fact that Ben doesn't seem to have any idea who Doom is at the start of #5, which can be written off as a "developmental oddity").

I disagree that the fact that Dick Grayson has aged from 13 to 29 (or whatever it is) means that Bruce Wayne has also aged 16 years.  It's comics.  Dick Grayson was a young teenager then and is an adult now.  Batman was an adult in his prime then and is still an adult in his prime.  It doesn't make any sense, but who cares?

You're half right.  That a superhero would remain "stuck in time" while his junior partner goes from young teen to full adulthood makes no sense.  The fact that Dick Grayson now operates as the very adult Nightwing is ridiculous.

Shoulda just made them the new Defenders. 

There's a few essential problems I have with Spider-Man and Wolverine on any superhero team.  The first is that Spider-Man is a loner.  He may be brave and competent and worthy of Avengers membership, but at heart, he's neurotic.  He can play well with others and maybe sit at the big kids' table for a while, but in a very short period of time, he's going to start doubting himself.  Big-time.  The Spider-Man I know would start to feel awkward and overclassed fighting the Kangs and Galactuses of the world on a regular basis.  He'd swing off after a few issues and say "It's been fun, but the Vulture's more my speed.  I'll worry about him so that you guys don't have to."

How about putting him on a lower-powered, "street-level" team, then?  Still doesn't work for me.  His wisecracking and neuroticism would get on the nerves of "tough, gritty" types after a while.  And you can say "Well, Spider-Man's NOT a loner, and hasn't been for some time" all you want- to me, Spider-Man IS a loner, and Stan Lee said so when he wrote stories proving why Spider-Man couldn't be in the Fantastic Four or the Avengers. 

Wolverine?  He's an X-Man.  Period.  OK, OK- I know he was technically introduced as a "solo" character in the Hulk, and he was in Alpha Flight, but really, to most people, Wolverine IS the X-Men.  I think about the only way to re-launch him as somebody who could stand outside the X-Verse is to write him out of the X-books and ban any mention of him for five years.  Then, he shows up again somewhere else at the end of that five years and has little to no direct contact with the X-Men.  Then, and only then, might you have a hope of disassociating him from the X-Men and turning him into a character that can stand on his own or join another team.  But putting him on the Avengers is like putting Reed and Sue in the Avengers- they're out of place and it's stupid because you know these people belong in their "home" titles.

The other issue with Wolverine is why would anyone else TAKE him?  The X-Men, as far as I know, keep him around in part to keep an eye on him.  But do you really see Captain America tolerating Wolverine's more maniacal moments?  I sure as hell don't.  Again, I can see them putting aside their differences for the greater good, but working together on a regular basis?  Uh-uh.

Finally, the Avengers are The Good Guys.  Spider-Man is- at least to the readers of the Daily Bugle and sizable segments of the NYPD- somewhere between a well-meaning nuisence and a dangerous criminal.  Wolverine is a borderline-homicidal member of a hated minority (yes, the Avengers had mutants before Wolverine, but consider the facts that the Beast looked like a big teddy bear and was a well-respected scientist, the Scarlet Witch was pretty and physically non-threatening, and Quicksilver...OK, I'll give you that one.  I can't figure out why anyone would like him either).  Kurt Busiek very effectively exploited the Avengers' standing in the Marvel Universe in Thunderbolts, when the Masters of Evil were able to exploit the void left by the Avengers's disappearence by playing on the general public's fear of mutants and monsters and other shadowy figures by posing as mom-and-apple pie All-American heroes.  The bottom line is, even assuming that the Avengers welcomed Spider-Man and Wolverine into their ranks, and those two didn't self-destruct and quit, the public of the Marvel Universe would not accept them as Avengers.    

The Spider-Man I know would start to feel awkward and overclassed fighting the Kangs and Galactuses of the world on a regular basis.  He'd swing off after a few issues and say "It's been fun, but the Vulture's more my speed.  I'll worry about him so that you guys don't have to."

Bingo.

The reason I picked the Defenders is because the root concept was "team of loners."  They may feel the need to work together once in awhile for whatever reason, but generally they don't live together, hang out together too much, etc.  Other than that, aside from the last paragraph (not the content per se, but I inferred that this would influence the other team members' actions and I disagree with that), I'm pretty much with you.  If nothing else you nailed the reasons why I don't think Spider-Man would/should last too long as an Avenger and why Wolverine should be nowhere near the team.

I might (MIGHT) be able to support the idea of Wolverine in the Avengers, but only if he had broken ties with the X-Men (the recent Millar storyline seemed to set that up, but nothing ever came of it) and if the idea was that Captain America felt someone should keep an eye on him.  Could be interesting for the characters and fans to see him interact with people other than his adopted family for awhile.  Now, eventually he would need to go back to the X-Men of course, but the nice thing about these characters that last years and years is that occasionally you can do something different with them for awhile. 

But Wolverine doing double duty just smacks of milking the cash cows, and the very thought that the reason Captain America and Iron Man have him on the team is so he can do their dirty work for them if it comes to that makes me wonder if Bendis understands the characters at all.  Ugh.

QUOTE: Was it Stan and Steve's desire for Spider-Man to be a loner?

Sorry, skipped this part - Stan has said that one of the reasons he didn't stick Spider-Man in the Avengers is because it wouldn't fit the character.  Only Stan and Steve know for sure, but that implies they wanted to keep him off on his own.  Plus the whole "no one trusts me" thing kind of goes out the window whenever the public is fond of the Avengers.  (Yeah, the public in those times was notoriously fickle, but by and large people seemed to like the Avengers.)

Matt Linton wrote: That's my point though.  It's one thing to say "I don't think Spider-Man and Wolverine should be Avengers".  It goes further to say if they're on the team then that team ISN'T the Avengers.

Hey, I agree with you.  That said...

QUOTE: I don't think Deathcry, Dr. Druid, or any of the Fantastic Four should be Avengers.  But they were, and nobody said it wasn't the Avengers anymore.

Wasn't online back then, but once I got online, based on some of the reactions I saw when Busiek/Perez took over, there was a contingent of fans who felt that a lot of that stuff "wasn't the Avengers."  May not have been as vocal back then, but OTOH the Internet is like giving everyone a podium. :-)  And when you have the editor saying stuff like "Wolverine didn't fit in Avengers.  He first in New Avengers.  Different thing," it only encourages the attitude.