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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 13 August 2006 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | 1
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On another board I frequent occasionally (Alvaro's Gold/Silver/Bronze) someone was asking why you chose not to sign The Comics Journal's Jack Kirby Petition back in 1986. I hadn't heard of this before but based on what I read here it was apparently a petition circulated among professionals asking Marvel to unconditionally return Kirby's original art to him (at a time when they were asking him to sign a four-page document before they would return the work).
The person asking the question on the other board indicated unwillingness to come here and ask you directly, but I'm curious myself now about any story behind this petition, so I thought I would ask. So, my questions are: am I characterizing the petition's content correctly, were you asked to sign it, and if you elected not to do so, what was your reason for declining?
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 13 August 2006 at 8:34pm
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 14 August 2006 at 6:05am | IP Logged | 2
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The person asking the question on the other board indicated unwillingness to come here and ask you directly…**** Then let this person get over their preemptive martyr complex and come and ask him/herself. I'll be happy to answer.
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Robert Oren
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| Posted: 14 August 2006 at 7:30am | IP Logged | 3
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It's like the old....a friend of my friends friend asked............................
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 14 August 2006 at 7:32am | IP Logged | 4
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This is, by the way, going to be my response to "imported" questions, from now on.
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Gregg Allinson
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| Posted: 14 August 2006 at 8:04am | IP Logged | 5
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Sounds fair to me.
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John OConnor
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| Posted: 14 August 2006 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 6
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Jason -- isn't that a 20 year old petition?
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Gregg Allinson
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| Posted: 14 August 2006 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 7
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Personally, I don't think the question is an unreasonable one, and it seems like Jason tried to be very diplomatic in phrasing it, but JB's right: if the person has a question, they should ask it themselves.
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Jason Czeskleba
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| Posted: 14 August 2006 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | 8
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Gregg Allinson wrote:
| if the person has a question, they should ask it themselves. |
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Well, I was asking the question for myself, really, not for the dude on the other board. Even though the question didn't originate with me, the discussion over there made me curious, so I asked (and I have to say man, if I'm only allowed to post original thoughts here I'm going to be f*cked from now on, dammit). At any rate I'm still curious enough that I'll go back to alvaro's and ask the dude why he's unwilling to come here and post.
Yeah, John, it is a 20 year old petition. That's why I'd never heard of it before... I stopped reading new comics from roughly 1985 to 1998 or so. I suppose some people do dredge it up in an attempt to paint Mr. Byrne in a bad light (eg "How could he not support Kirby?") but that wasn't my intent. I'm just curious what his opinion was about this.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 14 August 2006 at 7:48pm
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Neil Welch
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 14 August 2006 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | 9
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How come you didn't sign it, JB?
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 4:30am | IP Logged | 10
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Are you the questioner from the other board, Neil?
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Robert Oren
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 11
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Are you the questioner from the other board, Neil?
****************************
no he just didn't read this thread at all
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John OConnor
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 8:06am | IP Logged | 12
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My [un-requested] two cents...I remember this petition well, and often wondered why aren’t any other Marvel artist’s signing it? When I asked my local store if they were going to post one, I was told by the owner that in no uncertain terms if *M* got wind of it, they'd cut ties to that store. No, was that true? Who knows. Ultimately, Jack got back what Marvel had, and got a small pension [as did Roz]. None of that is necessarily fair, but, that's they way things were then. Jack had been in the biz then, for what? 45 years? Like other artists, he had not been taken care of, but with VERY few exceptions, none of them were. Where were, for example, the Image guys just a few years later, flush with millions, to also help out? Words are nice, but money talks. It might help to remember where TCJ was back then as well. They were constantly stirring the pot, trying to expand their influence and grow the market. I had all of those issues for years, until a flood in my garage finally made me get rid of them. This should be a lesson to all that this is a business.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 13
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I was told by the owner that in no uncertain terms if
*M* got wind of it, they'd cut ties to that store...was
that true?
****
That was not true.
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Steve Horton
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 14
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Yeah, and look at 'em now. What has the Comics Journal done for the industry lately, except for griping?
Their parent company gave us those beautiful Peanuts books (and will soon be doing Dennis the Menace books just like them) but what has TCJ done?
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 8:21am | IP Logged | 15
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...what has TCJ done?
***
Given a whole bunch of pseudo-intellectual "fans"
the model for their not-so-original thinking.
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Howard Mackie
Byrne Robotics Security
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 10:00am | IP Logged | 16
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<<I was told by the owner that in no uncertain terms if
*M* got wind of it, they'd cut ties to that store...was
that true?
****
That was not true.>>
I'll second that as someone who worked on staff at Marvel
at the time. THAT would have taken much more
organizational abilty, communication and foresight that
Marvel was capable of. I often marvel(no pun intended) at
the how much credit is given to the big publishers.
Howard
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 17
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What we see in this retailer's confused attitude is something of the mentality the internet would come to foster greatly. It's the Crusaders, here seen as "I would be a Crusader, but the Big Bad Company would GET me! (Ain't I special?)"It's pretty pathetic, all things considered. Actually, it's pathetic even if you consider nothing else!
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Matt Hawes
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 18
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John O'Conner wrote:
| ...I remember this petition well, and often wondered why aren’t any other Marvel artist’s signing it? When I asked my local store if they were going to post one, I was told by the owner that in no uncertain terms if *M* got wind of it, they'd cut ties to that store... |
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Heck, if publicly criticizing the policies of certain publishers causes them to cut off ties, I'm pretty much sunk.
I wasn't open in 1986 (I was still in high school), but I doubt what that retailer says would've happened.
Edited to fix quote.
Edited by Matt Hawes on 15 August 2006 at 10:16am
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Neil Welch
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 19
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Are you the questioner from the other board, Neil?
I am not! This thread left me wondering as to why you didn't sign it.
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Brian Hunt
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | 20
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Jason, use the Force to get the original person who asked the question to come here a put forth the question once more so that we all may know the answer. Use phrases like "What are ya? Chicken?" and loud clucking noises if you must.
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Wallace Sellars
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 1:00pm | IP Logged | 21
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Good grief...
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Ian M. Palmer
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 22
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I'm sure JB's posted about this before. My impression is that JB's view was that most of Kirby's work was done as work-for-hire and belonged to Marvel, full stop. I can sympathise with that view, but I'm horrified at the idea that, say, Siegel and Schuster could come up with one of the most enduring fictional creations of modern times and receive no proportionate reward. The terms at the time might have been such-and-such, but still don't seem fair.
IMP.
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Jason Czeskleba
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | 23
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Ian M. Palmer wrote:
| I'm sure JB's posted about this before. My impression is that JB's view
was that most of Kirby's work was done as work-for-hire and belonged to
Marvel, full stop. |
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I couldn't find anything via searching, googling, or checking the FAQ,
so I asked. At any rate, my understanding is that the petition
was specifically about the return of Kirby's original art, not the
broader issues of whether or not he was unfairly compensated or ripped off for
his creations (I know JB's position on those issues).
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 15 August 2006 at 7:01pm
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Ian M. Palmer
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 24
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I could be wrong. It happened once before, allegedly.
IMP.
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Dwayne Ferguson
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| Posted: 15 August 2006 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | 25
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I remember this being discussed before. Didnt think the whole thing was a big deal then and dont now. The only thing that gets on my nearves about this question is that in the past it has always been used as one of those untrue anti-byrne stories saying he hated Kirby- which is obviously not true based on the thousands of comments about Kirby on this very board.
One thing that bugged me about Kirby is that I have heard he did the very same thing marvel did to him to other artists that worked for him- but suddenly years later it was wrong what they did to him.
Edited by Dwayne Ferguson on 15 August 2006 at 5:39pm
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Topic Closed)
