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Topic: Has the internet ruined comics? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Arvid Spejare
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 1  

 Kevin Brown wrote:

That's just not right. 

[sarcasm]Of course he was totally justified in doing it, too.[/sarcasm]

My searching abilities on newsgroups are virtually zero, so this second hand telling is all I could find:

 http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/004062.html wrote:

There's a post from a couple of years ago about this on the alt.fan.peterdavid newsgroup. Short short version is this: Back when the PADguy was just a Marvel sales rep (instead of a writer like he is now), he was asked by a Marvel editor to drum up support for Byrne's Alpha Flight (back when it was numbered in single digits) among some comic retailers at a convention. The pages he was given to show the retailers were of the death of Guardian, though minus the word ballons the scene was interpreted as 'Heather having a bad dream after eating too many burritos before bedtime' rather than 'Guardian just bit the Big One'. Byrne comes into the room, and realized what was being passed around was a major spoiler from his run. Instead of quietly asking PAD to gather the pages from the retailers, he raised a big stink about how PAD had just spoiled the death of Guardian for him, and angrily grabs the pages from the retailers and leaves the room, leaving a bunch of retailers to discuss the spoiler that Byrne just dropped on them. Apparently Byrne's been mad about it ever since.

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Jason Fulton
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 9:33am | IP Logged | 2  

Well, that version is much more believable.

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David Miller
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 3  

Brand new rebuttal from Peter David!


 QUOTE:
Nnnnnno. A popular lie of John's, but no. Number one, it wasn't at a convention; it was at a get-together for retailers. Number two, it wasn't Guardian's death. It was an unlettered two page dream sequence in which Heather was seeing a dessicated Guardian tearing out the ground. Number three, it was part of a package of about two dozen photocopied highlights from assorted Marvel titles. Number four, the material in question was handed to me by Denny O'Neil, the book's editor when I--in my capacity as sales manager at the time--was going around collecting material to put into the package. And when I said to him, "Are you sure you want me to include this in the material?" Denny replied, "Sure, what's the harm?" Number five, retailers at the get together had no idea that the sequence actually indicated that Guardian really died. I know this because when John showed up at the get-together, he looked at the material, screamed at me at the top of his lungs, "How could you be showing this to retailers?!? It gives away the fact that Guardian dies!" and stormed out of the room, slowing only long enough to kick over a standing ashtray on his way out. At which point stunned retailers said, "Guardian DIES?," started looking at the xeroxes again, and were muttering, "I thought it was just a dream sequence..."


To think this Proustian jousting is as close to a collaboration between John Byrne and Peter David as we'll ever see. 
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 4  

I wish Denny O'Neil can give his side of the story. 
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David Miller
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 5  

I bet one of the retailers in attendance will complain about how he was hit by the  flying ashtray.  
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 6  

There was a retailer present who posted on this board about how JB politely excused himself from the crowd. 
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Jason Fulton
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 7  

Here's the thing - if you read JB's postings for any length of time, you'll notice that his stories / replies for this sort of thing are always the same. So JB is either a) a pathological liar or b) telling the ''true' story (as true as any story that involves more than two people can be). Twain said something along the lines of "the truth is great because it means you don't have to remember anything", right?

Plus, JB's version makes more sense because it doesn't sound like made-up bandwagon bullshit.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 8  

Well, not surprisingly, Peter David's version is nearly completely wrong.

Let's check the details. First, it was a convention. I was sitting at my table signing books and doing sketches when a fan came up to me and said "So Guardian is the one who's gonna die, huh?" I smirked my best smirk and said "That woud be telling." The guy smirked back and thrust the xeroxes at me. "No, I know it's Guardian. Peter David is handing out xeroxes."

I then sought out David and discovered that he was, indeed, doing just that, sitting behind his table and handing out xerox copies of the death scene (which did have Heather in it. He got that much right.) I exploded. I threw a fit -- but nothing else. I demanded to know what the %#$@ he was doing sabotaging a story I had been working on for more than a year. A story whose Big Reveal the Alpha office had somehow managed to keep out of the fan press. David did his best deer-in-the-headlights impression, and said it was his "job" to promote the books. "BY GIVING AWAY THE ENDINGS??" By this time I was pretty much on the verge of having a stroke. To prevent myself throttling the little sh*t I left the room, in the process stumbling and falling over a chair. Howls of laughter in the room. (This became, in earlier iterations of the story, the chair "Byrne threw at Peter David.")

When I confronted Denny, later, he professed complete ignorance of the whole thing. And, of course, he absolutely assured me there was no way in hell he would ever have authorized David handing out xeroxes of the end of the story.

It's a typical tale that has grown in the telling, but this is the true version. And, as noted above, there are witnesses who support this version.

Post Script -- I notice David leaves out of this version of his tale the bit of embroidery where he and Tom DeFalco had to come up to my room to "calm (me) down." It's a tangled web. Hard to keep track of all the strands.

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Lars Skau
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 9  

Unbelievable how some people behave, here meaning Peter David's behaviour!

JB's reaction I can understand.

 

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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 11:09am | IP Logged | 10  

One day Shifty Pete will get his due. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 11:10am | IP Logged | 11  

Twain said something along the lines of "the truth is great because it means you don't have to remember anything", right?

****

Smart girl, that Shania. Ahem

Something that has long fascinated me about certain segments of fandom, is the way they can memorize every comma of a comicbook's "continuity", yet when confronted with multiple and contradictory iterations of the same story, they will always insist that the person(s) generating the falsehoods are the ones telling the truth. This is how Bad Byrne Stories get started. "I don't care if Byrne could not possible have been at that convention because he was in the hospital in a full body cast! I believe he did what the story said he did!"

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Jason Fulton
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 12  

Smart like a fox, with only her cunning to protect her....

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Francesco Vanagolli
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 13  

There isn't any truth anymore: Superboy Prime destroyed the continuity in the real world, too.

Sigh.

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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | 14  

BTW, I did not do the first post as "Rod Odom" on PAD's blog. It's someone else trying to stir up trouble. 
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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 15  

This is how Bad Byrne Stories get started.

*******************************

The thing I don't get is how numerous people back up JB's version, while no one has come forward to say, "yes, David's version is right." 

No.  One.

I don't know, call me crazy if you want, but I tend to believe something when there's more than one person relating it. 

I like PAD's work, but stuff like this astounds me.

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 16  

 Clint Adams wrote:
Did you ever know that your favorite artist was going to be taking over a book until the month (or two before?)  I never did.  Likewise, did you know that your favorite artist wasn't going to be on a book until maybe the month (or two) before?  I never did.  These are things that the net has spoiled. 

How has that spoiled and/or ruined anything?  Knowing a creator is either coming on board or leaving a book spoils it how?  Quite the opposite, I find that helps me in planning my purchases.  You mention how you'd never have stuck around for Stern's run on SUPERMAN had you known he was taking over the book, but I still don't get how that was spoiled for you or had any affect on you picking up the book.  When you had Stern's book in hand, you could have checked the cover (I believe DC was running talent on the covers by then) and put it down if you don't like his writing.  Or, like I do, stick around for an issue to see if the new team holds your interest.  I just don't get how it's bad to know who's working on what comics when...unless, included in the information, are a ton of spoilers about upcoming stories.  

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Scott Rowland
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | 17  

I just don't get why anyone would have done that.  Seems like when a reasonable person looked at the pages he'd double check before handing them out.  Just handing them out would be stupid. 

Wouldn't PAD have to go out of his way to get the pages to make xeroxes?   Or at least go out of his way to make sure those pages were among the ones he brought to the convention?  Was there already that much bad blood between JB and PAD at that time? 







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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 18  

I find it very telling that here, we've merely discussed the various versions of this story, while over at David's site, they've quickly degenerated into the usual, "The JBF is the laughingstock of the Internet" and, "Byrne is so bitter, he can't let go of something that happened 20 years ago!", and "Byrne is irrelevant!".

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 19  

How has that spoiled and/or ruined anything? Knowing a creator is either coming on board or leaving a book spoils it how?

***

Listen, you young whippersnapper, finding out on the 'Net, or from PREVIEWS or WIZARD that your favorite artist is coming onto a book compares in no way to the OH WOW!!! factor of walking into the newsstand, or the drugstore, or whatever, and seeing the book for the first time on the rack.

THAT is what all this need-to-know-monts-in-advance crap has spoiled.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 20  

"Byrne is irrelevant!"

****

I'm not irrelevant. I'm a hippopotamus.
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Bill Myers
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 21  

Mr. Byrne, I am curious: if Mr. David was not authorized to be distributing photocopies of said Alpha Flight artwork, how did he obtain them in the first place? By definition, there would only be one set of originals. Were those in the possession of the Alpha Flight office? If so, did Mr. David surreptitiously photocopy those originals at the risk of losing his job? Pilfer them from someone else? Or was it common practice in the Marvel offices for photocopies of pages to "float" around -- even those that the editor wanted to keep under wraps, as you said was the case with this particular story?

And what do you believe Mr. David hoped to gain from this stunt you have accused him of pulling?

These are not rhetorical questions. As I said, I am curious.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 22  

(I can hear the next joke coming, so I might as well say it first....)

Does a little girl want you for Christmas?

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 23  

I get what you're saying, John, but I guess I'm just used to years and years of knowing when, say, a favorite author is going to publish a novel months (sometimes a year) out.  Same with knowing an actor and/or director has signed to a particular project several years prior to the release of their project. Long before the internet, publications like MARVEL AGE and editorial/letters pages informed fans about upcoming projects in the coming year.  There is a certain OH WOW!! factor to seeing something you weren't expecting, absolutely, but I like to know ahead of time, for instance, that you're going to be on a book, be it DEMON, ACTION or what have you.  Gives me time to talk it up to others.  Same with other creators I like.  For me, the OH WOW!! factor of your work on DEMON wasn't diminished one iota just because I had seen preview art at MOC, for instance.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:53pm | IP Logged | 24  

Mr. Byrne, I am curious: if Mr. David was not authorized to be distributing photocopies of said Alpha Flight artwork, how did he obtain them in the first place? By definition, there would only be one set of originals. Were those in the possession of the Alpha Flight office? If so, did Mr. David surreptitiously photocopy those originals at the risk of losing his job? Pilfer them from someone else? Or was it common practice in the Marvel offices for photocopies of pages to "float" around -- even those that the editor wanted to keep under wraps, as you said was the case with this particular story?

And what do you believe Mr. David hoped to gain from this stunt you have accused him of pulling?

***

Beats me. Ingratiating himself with the fans? Who knows. I cannot read minds. I can only report what actually happened.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 29 August 2006 at 12:58pm | IP Logged | 25  

Posted by: Peter David at August 29, 2006 02:47 PM

"Another flaw in the JB story, at a convention a fan comes over and states he got pages from Peter David, except I don't believe Peter David was that well known at the time. Saying "I got it from the guy at the Marvel Table" I could believe but specifically mentioning the name of a pro that fans really wouldn't have known at the time. That leads me to believe it was a retailer event, given PAD's postition at Marvel at the time retailers would know his name, average fans, not so much."

Excellent point. Guardian expired in 1984; my first published comic work didn't come out until 1985. It's not like my work on "Marvel Age" established my name in the consciousness of fans. So Byrne's latest lie becomes that much more obvious when faced with yet more indisputable facts. Sadly, most of the Byrnebots on his board will never look below the surface.

Oh, another popular Byrne lie, should it come up: Spider-Man 2099 #1 was the perfect example of a bad origin comic because the lead character never appears in costume. When it was pointed out to John that SM 2099 was in costume and in action for the first third of the book, he stated he didn't remember it that way. So I think we can chalk this one up to another of John's...how to put it...lapses.

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