> In my opinion it's a myth that DC characters are stronger than Marvel characters. Every creator I've ever asked has pretty much said as much. Hulk rules.

IMO, it's what's in the comics.  Whatever the reason -- difference in style or philosophy or wheatever -- Marvel guys don't operate on DC Comics' heroes levels but rarely.  And that's what I go by, as my post above explains.  Not by what any author says outside of a book -- but by what the books show.  I can only go by what I see, really.  And I don't see Marvel characters operating all too frequently above 100 tons.  To be honest, I rarely see them operate anywhere near 100 tons.

I ballpark characters by what they usually do, not by what an author says they could do ... but never has them do.

_FR

Hilarious, John!  Thanks for posting it!!

_FR

" I can only go by what I see, really.  And I don't see Marvel characters operating all too frequently above 100 tons.  To be honest, I rarely see them operate anywhere near 100 tons."

I disagree with this. In Alpha Flights first appearance Sasquatch hoists a jet and throws it off the runway. In another appearance (I believe in a Hulk issue, he is depicted towing an oil tanker to land. The Thing is constantly shown hoisting up some giant piece of equipment that Reed is working on, or throwing around buses and cars, or even holding up buildings. The Hulk regularily tossed tanks around (many of which weigh in excess of 70 tons). Even Colossus has had several depections of actually benchpressing massive amounts of tonnage with a specially made machine at the Xavier school. I could probably go on, as these are just off the top of my head.

And other than Superman, who granted, is always shown lifting trains, planes and automobiles, there really isn't that many characters who really show what kind of feats of strength they are capable of. For example, Martian Manhunter, who seems to be just under Superman in terms of sheer stength, is rarely depicted as lifting anything. Same with Wonder Woman.

"I ballpark characters by what they usually do, not by what an author says they could do ... but never has them do.  That wouldn't seem fair."

In the JLA/Avengers crossover Thor goes toe to toe with Superman, and Superman just barely wins. Superman even said in that that Thor may have been the strongest opponent he has ever fought. Now that is some elite company. I also liked the part later on when Thor seems anxious for a rematch with Superman stating that now that he has judged the mettle of Superman, the outcome of their fight may be different.

"Back to an earlier point, can anyone answer, what happens when the unstoppable (Juggernaut) meets the Immovable (Blob). Both can't be right or are we hanging on to these tantalising soundbites too much? The strongest one there is etc?"

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I recognize that a lot of other answers have been given, those being probably more correct than my friend's hypothesis, but I asked a friend a number of months ago what happened if an unstoppable force met an immovable object. He, being far more well versed in science than I, said that the unstoppable object is diverted, stating that Juggernaut would either deflect to the Blob's right, left, or between his legs. He argued that this would consistently and definitely be the case unless both objects were infiinitely huge.

> I disagree with this. In Alpha Flights first appearance ...

You just proved my point by listing incredibly old and incredibly rare feats for these people.  Operating at or over 100 tons simply isn't a common thing among Marvel characters.

And, yes, Superman was depicted as being on Thor's level in JLA/Avengers; that is but one event in a continuity that stretches from 1986 for Superman, and, what, 40 years for Thor.  I'm talking about trends ... common depicitons for all characters involved.  I don't favor any one instance or story over another, as I explained above.  And I don't isolate a single event or unduly stress its significance.  

Everything -- fight feats and non-fight feats -- has to be considered, in my opinion.  If I throw out everything but those times two characters fight, then I'd be throwing out 99% of both characters' continuities.  All that stuff was written, so it should all be considered, in my opinion.  Otherwise, I'd be left thinking that every time Spider-Man and Firelord fight, Spider-Man should mop the floor with the herald.  Or that Venom should trounce Superman.  Bishop should manhandle J'onn J'onzz.  Etc.  The bulk of their continuities all say that should not be the case, in my opinion.  It happened.  I don't have to like it; I do have to accept it, but I don't have to agree with it or think it makes sense.  Hulk vs. a snake?  Superman vs. a stone gargoyle?  Silver Surfer vs. a crowbar to the back of the head? 

See what I'm getting at?

As for how Martian Manhunter and the others stack up against Superman?  On average, I don't believe they stack up well at all against Superman -- that is, considering their entire continuities, not just those few times they have fought Superman or common opponents of Superman.  Even if we did that, though, Superman would still, more often than not, come out on top -- high above them, in my opinion.  Think of, say, how J'onn has done against Doomsday.  The Imperiex Probes.  The villain from JLA: Primeval.  The villain from Seven Caskets.  Superboy Prime.  Preus.  Supergirl.  Etc.  Heck, an inexperienced 15 year old Superman with merely "jumpstarted" powers took out a White Martian in one hit during Legion Lost.  J'onn's never done that.

No doubt, there are instances where J'onn has been put on top -- but do they amount to much?  And how does J'onn's record of non-fight feats stack up against Superman's own?  I've never seen J'onn palm a blackhole, hold up the Moon on his own or take "everything" Hal Jordan (in his own words) has to give like Superman has (check out Superman/Batman 29 -- Hal absolutely unloads on Superman, to little effect).  That's significant, in my opinion.  It's very telling.

_FR

Anyway...Superman clearly won.  And was able to continue even after being punched numerous times, simultaneously, by She-Hulk, Hercules, Iron Man, Vision and Wonder-Man. 

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He was beaten unconcious by the Avengers.

> That's not a good thing.  Even Superman should have to grunt and sweat a bit against "the most powerful weapon in the uiniverse ...

What can I say?  He's got an amazing track record against those things.  More often than not, he can outpower them toute de suite.  He beat out John Stewart's power during Sacrifice in the space of a panel or so, treated Guy Gardner's yellow ring like it was nothing when they fought in the early 1990s (did so to Gardner's green ring in Armegeddon 2001 -- who knows if that's cannon?).  Heck, did you see Superman fight a pumped-up, Kyle Raynor's uneashed id in Last Laugh?  Wow.

"Most powerful weapon in the universe" is just a tagline -- like Hulk's "unlimited strength," Juggernaut's "unstoppability" and Odin's "omnipotence."

Superman's not literally made of steel, mind you.  :)

_Frank Robert