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Todd Douglas
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 8:24am | IP Logged | 1  


 QUOTE:
1. And, with the information available, that was a perfectly reasonable assumption.

+++++++++++++

Stan Lee: "Let's see...I'm the writer, and I'm going to kill Bucky. Since I'm writing his death into the story, then I can reasonably assume he's dead based on that available information. Can't I?"

Or, was Stan wrong?

Please re-read in context with the very next sentence, Greg:  "And, with the information available, that was a perfectly reasonable assumption.  Whether intentional or not, however, Lee & Kirby constructed that available information in such a way as to leave an "out" for someone to bring Bucky back in."

Never said he was "wrong."  Simply that he constructed the information we were provided in such a way as to not rule anything out.  That construction may have been intentional...may not have been.  Being "right" or "wrong" doesn't figure into that.


 QUOTE:

Before, Cap had lost his friend and Partner. Forever. He felt guilty about not being able to save him, and maybe even guilty about having a young partner to begin with.

Now, Bucky is alive, and can perhaps be rehabilitated. Cap may have failed in a different way, but he now has a chance to regain that which he thought lost forever.

An interesting take on it, and I can see where you're coming from.  While enjoying the story, the cynic (or is it the realist?) in me just can't see that happy ending happening, though.  Even if Bucky's rehabilitated, I'd expect some twist to blunt the happy ending.


 QUOTE:
Anyway, Todd, I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. But, I appreciate your calm, well-articulated points (no points to Rankin, though), and thank you for the spirited debate.

Back atcha, Greg.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 2  

"There wasn't a body" may (or may not) be a "cheap excuse," but it's a fairly common staple of serialized fiction.

***

BAD serialized fiction, yes.

Bucky was hanging onto a flying bomb. He didn't fall off. The bomb exploded with him astride it. A bomb -- "explosive filled drone plane" was Stan's phrase, as I recall -- which, if it was only as powerful as any of the conventional bombs dropped in WW2, would have been sufficient to shred Bucky and scatter his parts over the ocean -- where there would have been plenty of fish and other critters more than happy to pick the bones clean.

"There wasn't a body" is an excuse that works only if there is a viable chance that the "dead" person might have survived. That is not the case with Bucky, not in Stan and Jack's intent, not in the execution.

After all, we never saw Uncle Ben's body, either. In fact, given the much more discrete fashion of storytelling in the Silver Age, there are a whole lot of dead bodies we never saw. All candidates for resurrection?

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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 8:37am | IP Logged | 3  

I am willing to bet that the majority of the most vehement detractors to the "bucky is back" concept have not read the story.  To label it as a bad idea or badly written or that Brubaker doesn't care about the characters and is undermining blah blah what not without reading it is unfair.  Read it and if your opinion remains the same, that is fine.  But to not give it a chance while going on about how it is wrong is...well...wrong.

***

It is not in any way wrong to declare the core idea of a story "wrong" without reading that story. "Superman is secretly a pedophile." Do you need to read that story to know it is wrong, no matter how "well written" it might be? "Batman is really a woman." "It was really Steve Rogers who died, and Bucky has been posing as him ever since." "Reed Richards is really a Skrull." etc, etc.

Problem with today's comics, in too many cases, is that any idea that's tossed out is considered fair game, so long as the writer can "tell a good story".

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 4  

Bucky dies...

 

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David Kingsley Kingsley
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 9:13am | IP Logged | 5  

I think that many disagree here, though, about wheter its the "core" of Captain America's story, and certainly Brubaker's arcs are not comparable to "Superman is a pedophile".

Edited by David Kingsley Kingsley on 13 December 2006 at 9:14am
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Matt Linton
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 9:34am | IP Logged | 6  

Pages from the Winter Soldier storyline:




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Mike Bunge
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 7  

"certainly Brubaker's arcs are not comparable to "Superman is a pedophile"."

 

Not in practice, perhaps, but certainly in principle.  The principle being "some things are just bad ideas, no matter how well done they are".  I think that's a perfectly valid concept, especially in the context of pre-existing characters and their audience.

Mike

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David Kingsley Kingsley
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 9:44am | IP Logged | 8  

...but bringing back Bucky doesn't make Captain America a perverted monster in the eyes of readers...I just fail to see the point..
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Mike Bunge
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 9  

"I just fail to see the point.."

 

The point being that a story can be extremely well written, but still just be a bad idea.  The classic example I've come up with is someone writing a Star Wars novel, where someone discovers that Luke and Leia had a one-night stand after The Battle of Yavin and uses that to blackmail them into doing bad things.

I don't care how well-written it would be, a Star Wars story about unwitting Jedi incest is a bad idea.

Mike 

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Brad Teschner
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 10  

haven't read the arc, but i do have a question: could this story have been told using a character other than Bucky?  would the development of Cap's character (cuz remember, that's what all GOOD storytelling is about) been the same had the writer used Cpl. Walter O'Reilly who died at Captain America's side while trying to take some hill in Germany?

if the answer is "yes" then i chalk this up to just another in a long line of pointless deaths/rebirths intended to boost sales.
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Joakim Jahlmar
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 11  

While those who think Brubaker's take a bad one drag out very clear cut
examples of bad ideas (i.e. ideas we all very clearly agree on the badness
of, e.g. Superman the pedophile story), it seems to me, who observes this
debate from the sidelines (not having read Brubaker). as if the very notion
of whether this is indeed bad or not is actually the running point. Those
most convinced by Brubaker's take doesn't seem to think the idea bad,
which clearly points to, at the very least, a modicum of taste and
interpretation as to what qualifies as bad (or good for that matter) ideas.

Moreover, I'd like to venture that while some ideas are clearcut and simply
bad (or good)... I think that there are some ideas which may seem like a
bad idea, but with the right execution could prove excellent. just as good
ideas not always give good results. Granted that it's better to go with a
good idea than a bad one, but I'd also argue that there might be plans for
an idea beyond say "let's resurrect Bucky", so what exactly is the core
element of the idea to begin with?

Anyways... just my penny.
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Todd Douglas
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 10:28am | IP Logged | 12  

Brad, I'm clearly a bit biased on the matter, but I'd have to say that the answer to your question would be, "No."  While I'm sure Cap would be doing his best to bring Radar back in from the proverbial cold, the connection between him & Bucky is much closer...more personal.

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Greg Kirkpatrick
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 10:30am | IP Logged | 13  

Brad T-No, i don't think this story could have been possible if the Winter Soldier were anyone not Bucky. The fact that it is Bucky is the ONLY way this story has such an impact.
Sorry to be a bit cryptic, but just in case, I didn't want to give away spoilers.
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David Kingsley Kingsley
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 11:34am | IP Logged | 14  

No, I do not believe it would have been at all possible to do a story with anyone other than Bucky. Again, who from Captain America's past would have made sense? And Brubaker did one better by doing something I've never seen done before: deeply exploring the Bucky/Cap relationship. Since I've read very few of the golden-age Cap stories, I'm at a loss to describe their relationship. Was it pseudo-father/son, like Batman and Dick Grayson? Was it mentor/protege, more like Batman and Tim Drake? Was it partners? Best friends? If it was best friends, how did Captain America feel about entering the fray with someone ten years younger than him at his side? Brubaker did, what I would call a deep nuanced examination of their friendship, and Bucky returning made Steve Rogers reevaluate and mourn for the loss of that friendship more than, I would argue, James Buchanan Barnes' death ever did.

I can see the Luke/Leia one-night stand as a somewhat valid point of comparison, but there's nothing subversive in the story that Brubaker's doing. There's no pedophilia or incest. It's deepening Captain America's heroism, exploring Bucky's heroism, and is adding to the mythos as opposed to subtracting from them, or adding in something "vile" or "adult."



Edited by David Kingsley Kingsley on 13 December 2006 at 11:37am
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David Kingsley Kingsley
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 15  

Also, I could understand an argument that Brubaker could explore Captain America and Bucky's relationship without ressurecting Bucky. That would be fair. However, I think that for the generation whose my age or younger, there's just such an unfamiliarity with Bucky as the character is, now, rarely mentioned or referred to. I would find it akin to having Spider-Man reflect on his failure to save George Stacy and his relationship with the police captain prior to his death. I think that bringing Bucky back from the dead is the only logical way to tell this story to the present readership.
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Andrew Kneath
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 16  

Controversy aside that's nice art! It has a very old achool British look to it.Is that by Steve Epting?
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Brad Teschner
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 17  

Alright...I didn't want to continue this until I got a little background on this Winter Soldier arc.  After doing some research (gotta love the INTERNETS) I'm truly of the opinion that Winter Soldier did NOT need to be Bucky.

It seems like a trick just to give the character credibility...a not so subtle wink-wink nod-nod.  Hey...look what that character was REALLY doing during his time with Cap.  In so doing, by the way, it has effectively erased the character of Bucky altogether (replaced by a killer) since the life he was leading was a lie.

I would also guess that this has done away with any guilt Cap felt over Bucky's death and turned him rather cynical and reluctant to trust others close to him again.  In that respect I'd agree that the character would need to be Bucky...but do I really want a cynical Captain America?

I'm sure this arc has been well written but I think this is a case of Brubaker spending all of his time thinking about whether or not he could and not considering whether or not he should.

Winter Soldier could have been anybody else (and I think should have been) and still been as effective.  I kinda like the idea of this shadowy character that's been lurking about over the past 65 years...I just don't agree that it had to be Bucky.
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Greg Kirkpatrick
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 18  

You didn't do enough research, Brad.  Winter Soldier being Bucky was the exact point of the enitre arc.  Cap's reaction when he realizes Bucky is alive. Cap trying to 'rescue' Bucky all over again.  The original Cap-bucky relationship is exactly why this story is what it is.  the impact of another person being Winter Soldier whouyld have nowhere near the same impact.
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Brad Teschner
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 19  

David - it doesn't seem to me that Brunaker has explored the Cap/Bucky relationship...he's redefined it.

Quick side note regarding Epting's art:  An explosion that engulfs the plane in flames leaves Bucky's hair intact?  and the explosion is powerful enough to separate his arm at the shoulder but doesn't take his head off too?


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Matt Linton
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 11:57am | IP Logged | 20  

If anything, Captain America's guilt over Bucky's 'death' has increased, not decreased.  Because of his failure to save Bucky, his friend was used to commit horrible acts by evil men.  As for what the character was REALLY doing during his time with Cap, what's shown in the book isn't all that different from Bucky killing enemy soldiers ON THE COVERS of the Golden Age Captain America comics.  Cap becoming cynical is nothing new in the comics either.  Check out Englehart's run in the 70s and Gruenwald's in the 80s.  It's a cycle the character goes through where he becomes cynical and disillusioned and eventually has his faith restored.

I don't agree that Winter Soldier could have been anyone else and still been as effective.  Cap doesn't have the same connection to any other character that he had to Bucky, or to Bucky's death.  Having a random soldier become Winter Soldier would be like a guy walking down the street getting killed instead of Uncle Ben. 

Regarding the art nitpicks:  Captain America is floating around in ice for decades, yet doesn't lose any fingers or toes to frostbite.  Characters routinely fly around at supersonic speeds without causing sonic booms.  My point is that many things happen in fictional stories that don't match up with reality.


Edited by Matt Linton on 13 December 2006 at 12:01pm
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Brad Teschner
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 21  

greg - you're right...my research was not entirely complete and i will at least seek out someone that has the Winter Soldier arc to get some more info...using Bucky still seems like a hook to me.  There also seems to be a big out here too...is this really Bucky or did Cap will this guy to think he's Bucky via the Cosmic Cube???
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Matt Linton
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | 22  

There is a big out written into the story.  Whether it's used or not remains to be seen, but it's definitely there.
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Greg Kirkpatrick
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | 23  

Brad-Oh, of course it's a hook!  If someone was on board from the beginning, the got great story-telling and then a shock!  It is a little tougher knowing that Bucky is the Winter Soldier going in (like was the case with me) to the trades, but still is a good read.
Now, in regards to the Cosmic Cube-Is this really Bucky...if it turned out it was not really Bucky, would readers feel cheated or that it was a cop-out?
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Todd Douglas
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 24  


 QUOTE:
I would also guess that this has done away with any guilt Cap felt over Bucky's death and turned him rather cynical and reluctant to trust others close to him again. 

I'm glad you mention this is a guess, Brad.  Because it's a wrong guess.  As noted before, it hasn't done away with Cap's guilt...he still feels that he failed Bucky.  It hasn't "turned him rather cynical and reluctant to trust others close to him again."  In fact, he's actively trying to reconnect with Bucky...to help Bucky face whatever demons he has.  (And, right now, Bucky doesn't want that help - he still can't even bring himself to face Cap.)  If anything's caused a cynical/mistrusting turn in the character (and I'm not sure that such a turn is present), it's not the Winter Soldier storyline, it's Civil War.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 December 2006 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 25  

…certainly Brubaker's arcs are not comparable to "Superman is a pedophile…

***

Did someone say they were?

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