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Topic: Everything You Know is a Lie (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Peter Svensson
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Posted: 09 December 2006 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 1  

The one thing I liked about the story that brought Bucky back was that Brubaker left a very big Undo button for later writers, in that the cosmic cube was a major element of that storyline. It's child's play for the next writer to go "No, that isn't really Bucky, but a Cosmic Cube replica!"

If you are going to make a huge change to the status quo, keeping a back door open is only the right thing to do.

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Ed Love
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 1:17am | IP Logged | 2  

I dislike almost everything Brubaker has done with Bucky and is why I don't read Captain America and pretty much have lost any interest in reading his other work and this was after greatly enjoying his Catwoman. It's not so much "everything is a lie" as much as outright retcons in order to make his story work that turns Bucky largely into a character that we already had, and that character gets killed. It's not only how Bucky died that gets changed (and weakens that scene imho) but also the origin of how he came to be Captain America's partner and his role as partner (to do the dirty jobs that Cap cannot  do since he's a symbol and Cap goes along with this).

I now have this rule of thumb about continuity, if you want to write a book that's continuity heavy then make the continuity work for you, don't make changes to make your story work. If you don't want to be beholden to continuity, then don't do a continuity heavy story. As Bucky is backstory to Captain America, there is nothing about that continuity that cries out for Brubaker to have to address it if he has problems with the Bucky character. Bucky's been dead 20 years, tell a story that doesn't involve Bucky. How many Bucky stories did Gruenwald write in the years he was on the book. But, the first thing Brubaker does on the book is start changing continuity that has been in place for decades, some of which that was put in place by the guys that created the characters. What balls it takes to say that Simon & Kirby got Bucky's story wrong and that Lee & Kirby got his death wrong.
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Matt Linton
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 1:44am | IP Logged | 3  

Since when does doing something different mean that someone else got it wrong?  Brubaker had a story he wanted to tell, Marvel allowed him to tell it.  Nowhere in there is he saying Simon & Kirby or Lee & Kirby got it wrong (and as I mentioned before, Bucky's death was a retcon in the first place, and it didn't mean that Stan Lee was saying Joe Simon got it wrong).  You're ascribing a motivation to Brubaker without any evidence that it exists.
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Emery Calame
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 4  

Now it's more like, "  Everything you know is a bad idea that sounded really good at the time but now hangs like a greasy smudge on the window pane of comics. " 

Next issue: "the Windex cometh" !

Issue after that one: "What the? More smudges? "



Edited by Emery Calame on 10 December 2006 at 11:02am
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Ed Love
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 5  

When he tells a completely different account of the story that is in no way compatible to the very first story that Simon & Kirby  wrote detailing how Bucky became Captain America's partner, then he's obviously saying his version with the modern sensibilities is the correct one and not the story that Simon & Kirby wrote, the story that's held up for 60 years. That's not just choosing to tell a different kind of story or doing something different. It's not ascribing motivation, it just is. Which story is he presenting as the truth? Both cannot be right. A lot of Brubaker's run is recreating Bucky and his backstory as a completely different character than has always been presented because frankly, his story doesn't work as well without the changes to Bucky's past. To make him a threat as the Winter Soldier today, he needs to make the character darker and a trained commando assassin in the past. Instead of writing a story that grows out of the character, he's changing the character to fit the story he wants to write.

Kirby bringing Jimmy Olsen together with his old golden-age characters the Guardian and Newsboy Legion and updating them with his sci-fi sensibilities, that is doing something different with characters without re-writing everything that's been done with the characters up to that point. Simonson & Goodwin did something new with the Simon & Kirby Manhunter but they didn't go out of their way to actually contradict what the duo created. That's doing something different without saying the previous writers got the character wrong.



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Matt Linton
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | 6  

But when you say, "What balls it takes to say that Simon & Kirby got Bucky's story wrong and that Lee & Kirby got his death wrong." you're making it sound like Brubaker is arrogantly saying those things, when he's doing nothing of the sort.  No more than in any other EYKIAL situation.  MAN OF STEEL has Superman arriving on Earth as an infant, rather than a toddler, as had been previously shown.  That didn't mean that JB was saying everyone else "got it wrong".  Heck, DC changed the origins/early years of many of their characters post-Crisis, including Batman (never caught his parent's killer) and Wonder Woman (never EXISTED pre-Crisis).  Those writers weren't saying those who'd worked on the older stories got it wrong, they were just telling different stories.

Plus, we're talking about Captain America, a character that was essentially retconned to be able to be a part of the Silver Age Marvel Universe, and Bucky, a character who's death was a retcon in the first place.
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Chris Durnell
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 7  

EYKIAL is a powerful tool with the potential to harm more than help.  Whether it is a good idea depends a lot on the context.  It should not be used on strong characters that are popular.  It should be reserved for cases where 1) the original creative team intends it to be a long term plot for a character they created, 2) team books with a long standing character that is somewhat bland or under utilized and the idea is intended to rejuvenate them, and 3) failed characters that never connected with an audience who might be salvaged and given a prolonged identity.

It should be rare, and an escape hatch should be received in case the entire thing blows up in our face.  There would be very few writers I'd allow to use this as a plot, if I was an editor.

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Ed Love
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | 8  

Matt, there's quite a bit of difference between what Brubaker is doing and what DC did post-crisis. Reboots recognize past continuity in stating a clean slate and new start. Whereas something like Brubaker's work here is basically saying that all past portrayals of Bucky were wrong including the one by the character's creators. As people pointed out here, the best "Everything you knew was a lie" stories still work with continuity, explaining inconsistancies and filling in gaps but often don't really change the validity of the stories. Bru's contradicts the stories and even he knows it while largely changing the basic nature of the character.

I daresay even the retcon death of Bucky isn't as big a crime in that the context of what continuity was and what was expected was different from now. At the time, much of what happened in the days of Timely and how they connected to the "modern" Marvel was unknown. And even then it doesn't contradict all of the stories, mostly just the post-war and brief 50's relaunch (that has internal logic problems anyway if you are going to try to keep them in a continuity heavy universe requiring some kind of retconning)
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Matt Linton
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Posted: 10 December 2006 at 11:06pm | IP Logged | 9  

I guess that's where we disagree, Ed.  I don't think Brubaker's story is changing the basic nature of the character.  In the original Captain America comics Bucky was parachuting into battle and machine-gunning Nazis.  Brubaker has Bucky as, essentially, a Special Forces type.  The crimes that he committed over the years as the Winter Soldier are a result of brainwashing by his captors, brainwashing that he's shown to have fought against more than once, which is why they started shutting him down for long periods of time between use.  What Brubaker changed is the story from the moments after the explosion that left Captain America frozen.  The explosion still took place and Captain America still believed all those years that Bucky had died.  The only change is that he was revived.
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Joakim Jahlmar
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Posted: 11 December 2006 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 10  

Andrew Bitner wrote:
"You're right, Joakim-- a writer just starting out would be better off sticking with the basics and not trying for Advanced Plotting 505 right off the bat. It takes a lot of work, which seems to surprise most people, to craft a story worth reading.

Anything that affects a character's backstory in a significant way should be approached like plutonium: dangerous and capable of causing a huge explosion."

I agree, Andrew. And even more, the writer in question needs to acknowledge what he is writing. While I'd never agree that a writer writing "his own stuff" by default wouldn't have to apply the laws of storytelling or still need a lot of skills and practice to wield more complex narrative devices (there's far too much badly written fiction out there to argue that that'd be the case), there is after all a fundamental difference in writing something which the writer himself is more free to set up and move along, than to write within the parameters of frnachise writing, where he/she needs to 1) deal with already existing characters and stay true to them, 2) develop plots and stories out of set parameters, including character and already existing plot elements, and 3) remember not to upset the franchise beyond irridemable repair. Much of the latter, I would argue, is why franchise writing (whether for television, comics or books) provides the editors with much more prominent positions. They need to be there to keep everything in check.

In that sense, it's not only the fault of the writer who probably should have stayed out of franchise writing (or at least one specific kind, perhaps), but also that of the editor who not only allowed him/her into the play pen, but also let him/her break all the toys for his/her own pleasure.

Lars Johansson wrote (in response to yours truly):
"I don't know if 'the lie' is a heavy device, but it might look like it, when it's badly wrtten. Writing so that it looks as if it was easy to write it is what I would call real heavy duty."

I agree. Most things that look easy in any artform tend to be particularly hard. And anyone who can make things seem easy to do also attracts followers with far too little skill. The everything you knew is a lie (which is a device I really enjoy when handled correctly, especially in films like The Ususal Suspects) is not necessarily the most complex device, but it does require a keen eye for detail and logic to make it hold together. Also, I think it's a much heavier device within ongoing, serialised franchise-writing, since not only the need for logical detail is even more extreme, but you also have the added difficulty of fore-seeing how it effects the future of the franchise.

Ed Love wrote:
"Instead of writing a story that grows out of the character, he's changing the character to fit the story he wants to write."

And maybe that's the key to writing good franchise writing... be sure of writing stories out of the pre-existing characters rather than writing characters into "pre-existing" story ideas.

If story A is a good story that needs a character who does certain things, there are requirements put on the character by the story, and it may not be appropriate to throw in the hero of your choice, and it should most likely not be a Spider-Man story.
If story B is good story is a good story because it is rooted in the character of Spider-Man and how he will handle a specific crisis (personal or superhero), the stoy requirements come out of the character, and it would in all likelihood not be good if it wasn't a Spider-Man story.



Edited by Joakim Jahlmar on 11 December 2006 at 7:16am
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 11 December 2006 at 12:55pm | IP Logged | 11  

 Ed Love wrote:
Matt, there's quite a bit of difference between what Brubaker is doing and what DC did post-crisis. Reboots recognize past continuity in stating a clean slate and new start. Whereas something like Brubaker's work here is basically saying that all past portrayals of Bucky were wrong including the one by the character's creators.

Ed, when did you stop reading CAPTAIN AMERICA with Brubaker as writer?  I've gotta say, I'm with Matt L. on this one.  You are insisting that what Brubaker is doing is giving a big old finger to the original creators of Cap and Bucky, but that's not what he's doing at all.  In no way is he telling them they got their story wrong and working off hubris to tell it right.  Love it or hate it, I believe Brubaker has told a compelling story with "Winter Soldier".  It's not nearly as big a leap as you want to make it out to be to get the Bucky we've known to the Bucky we see today.  I also think your read on him is wrong.  Brubaker didn't create a Bucky as a guy that does the dirty work while Cap stays clean.  That was just one story of Bucky coming into his own during a time of war...a war where Cap has, on any of a number of occasions, killed enemy combatants. I don't think it's Brubaker's intention at all to show Cap as squeaky clean and Bucky as the killer.  Most of what Bucky learned to become the Winter Soldier was after what we thought to be his death.  Brubaker went to great pains to show this in a montage sequence that caught us up on how he became who he is now.  That's why I ask when you stopped reading the title.  If it was an issue or two into the story, then I'd understand your position, although say it was terribly uninformed, but if it was 15 or so issues in, then I'm left wondering if we're reading the same title at all.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 11 December 2006 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | 12  

There is no way to do a good "Bucky is still alive" story. Absolutely no way. I don't care if it is well written, if it is "compelling", if it is any kind of praise you want to heap upon is -- it is a BAD story, because it begins with a BAD premise. Some deaths are too important to be undone, no matter how cleverly the resurrection might be accomplished. By bringing Bucky back -- unless it turns out to be a hoax, which is a whole 'nother kind of BAD story -- ^^***** has reached the point DC was at when they decided it was a good idea to do THIS:

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