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Topic: JB’s Superman retcon is offically retconned (spoilers) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Ben Mcvay
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 1  

So in the new JLA/JSA crossover. Superman takes some team members to the Fortress and they look at statutes of his friends from when he was a boy, the Legion of Superheroes who he had years of adventures with. This is of course the Pre-Crisis LOSH. Although there are some continuity descripencies in the Legionnaires depicted (Sensor Girl over Princess Projectra, no Tyroc, Quislet, Supergirl, etc.). I like that continuity a lot better than what follwed for the most part so I'm glad to see them back.

Does anyone know (I'm sure JB does) if Paul Levitz was oppossed to the first Crisis and retcons? I ask because ever since he took over it seems that he's been slowly moving things back to the original continuity, which I'm not entierly disappointed with in some ways.

On a side note there seems to be so many continuity problems created by all of this, not to mention all of the continuity problems that DC are creating in 52/One Year Later. What I mean by this is Supergirl. According to "Up, up and away" she watched over Metropolis for the "year of 52", while in her own book she was in Kandor with Powergirl fighting crime and in 52/SLOSH she spent that year with the 3-boot Legion and then seemingly split into 2 people when she got back .With so many editors, etc. working on this "tight continuity" how can they have these huge contradictions?

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 12:23pm | IP Logged | 2  

First, what I did was a reboot, not a retcon.

Second… didn't this happen YEARS ago?
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Kurt Anderson
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | 3  

At this point, I'm just going with it.



Edited by Kurt Anderson on 26 April 2007 at 12:26pm
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Ben Mcvay
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 4  

Actually, Superman met the Legion for the first time post ZH during the Final Night, which was 2nd reboot team for LSH and entirely different from the old team or the one that is being published monthly. I just wish they'd make up there mind and stick to whatever choices they make. It isn't like there is that much change at the top to maintain these choices.

This whole Superboy Prime punched the wall of reality and changed a bunch of things is the lamest plot device ever.

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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 5  

 Ben wrote:
...With so many editors, etc. working on this "tight continuity" how can they have these huge contradictions?...

It's all because evil Superboy from Earth-Prime punched on the wall of his cosmic prison.

...

Yeah, it's as silly as it sounds.

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Ron Farrell
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 6  

The Superboy-prime punches were to explain anomalies before INFINITE CRISIS. Now we have a total universal reboot so anything goes.
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Andrew Hess
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | 7  

WT as they say F

I haven't been reading any DC comic regularly since JB's comics stopped, and
haven't read Superman with any regularity since just before Death of
Superman; and this will keep me away.

DC may be trying to turn things back to the DC that I grew up with, but it all
sounds so desperate.
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Joe Hollon
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 8  

SPOILER WARNING FOR BATMAN ANNUAL #25

*******

"It's all because evil Superboy from Earth-Prime punched on the wall of his cosmic prison."

******

I could not believe it when they used this to explain Jason Todd's return from the dead.  I was genuinely excited to read that Batman annual because I was so intrigued at how they would explain it.  I sold the issue on eBay about a week later to at least recoup some of the funds I wasted on that trash.  I can't do anything to get back the 25 minutes of my life however...


Edited by Joe Hollon on 26 April 2007 at 1:14pm
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Jeff Albertson
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 9  

Does any cosmic explanation for a retcon not sound "silly?"

Within the stories, I can accept a silver-age style Kryptonian in a strange dimension with strange properties inadvertently affecting the outside universe just as easily as as I can the embodiment of the entire universe deciding that Stephen Strange needs a secret identity or the Time Trapper splitting off a second of time to make a pocket universe just so the Legion can have a Superboy.  It's all there just to provide some sort of in-story explanation, not to be looked at too closely. 
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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 10  

I'm so tired of hearing about retcons, retcons, retcons! I just want good stories.
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Kurt Evans
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 11  

I have to admit a considerable disappointment that they are pulling out of the post crisis universe.  Going back to pre-crisis continuity might be enough to drive me away from mainstream DC.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | 12  

I'm so tired of hearing about retcons, retcons, retcons! I just want good
stories.
***********
i find myself reading alot of old comics lately for good stories.
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Monte Gruhlke
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 13  

Actually, there was a recent storyline in Teen Titans that tried to explain why some DC notables were apparently coming back from the dead (Kid Eternity was being used as an unwilling doorstop between the living world and the beyond). Whether or not that was a unviersal DC thing to just for TT, I don't know.
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Thom Price
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 14  

I'm so tired of hearing about retcons, retcons, retcons! I just want good stories.

***

Amen!  Far too many comic storylines start with an agenda (changing, 'fixing' or constantly explaining things) rather than simply telling stories where changes occur naturally.  CRISIS, which was supposed to streamline and simplify DC, made these kinds of stories widespread at DC; I don't know what Marvel's problem is.

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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 15  

The problem with the Legion being reintroduced as a part of Superman's childhood is that it leaves the many confused Legion histories even more confused then they already are. 

I really, really, really dislike how the current DCU is apparently being moulded by folks who are basically trying to satisfy their nostalgia instinct by resetting the clock to how things were in their childhood. 

I'll be selfish about it.  The Superman of the last twenty years, the John Byrne Superman, is also MY Superman, and he's basically been wiped away just like that.

 And yeah, that irks me a little.
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James Hanson
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 2:50pm | IP Logged | 16  

I'm sick of them constantly needing to alter the past as well. Just ignore what
you dislike without contradicting it and tell the story. Stan and Jack didn't
spend time trying to deal with Cap's continuity--they just wrote awesome
Cap stories.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 3:00pm | IP Logged | 17  

I'm sick of them constantly needing to alter the past as well. Just ignore what you dislike without contradicting it and tell the story. Stan and Jack didn't spend time trying to deal with Cap's continuity--they just wrote awesome Cap stories.

***

Ah, but here we come to the o-so-important difference between Stan and Jack's generation, and (increasingly) those who came after. Stan and Jack may have loved comics, but they were not fans. Their attachment came from a whole different set of emotions, and, as such, they did not feel the need to crawl up into their own behinds in search of stories. They were not, as Julie Schwartz so aptly dubbed many who came after, "archeologists".

If we take the fan-turned-pro attitude so prevalent in the industry today, and apply it retroactively, everything that drew most of us to superhero comics in the first place pretty much disappears. The Silver Age does not happen, because Green Lantern, the Flash, Hawkman, et al do not get recreated, they get brought back, in their original forms, with six or seven years added. Then the stories start exploring where they were and what they were up to for those "missing" years. Not a la HIDDEN YEARS, where it's just one title -- all the books.

Look what happened after "The Flash of Two Worlds", very possibly the last gasp of the true "Silver Age". And why did Hawkman get those silly wings on his helmet?

All fan-think. All the kind of stuff that would never occur to Stan and Jack. The closest they ever got was bringing back Captain America -- and that they did by ignoring "continuity"!!

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Michael Kennedy
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | 18  

Zaki Hasan wrote:

I'll be selfish about it.  The Superman of the last twenty years, the John Byrne Superman, is also MY Superman, and he's basically been wiped away just like that.


It's like I told someone on another comic message board, around the time Infinite Crisis was coming to a head: 20 years from now, when the fans of Post-Crisis DC and the Man of Steel Superman come into power, they will have yet another Crisis of their own, to restore the characters of their childhood back to "the way they are supposed to be." The vicious cycle will continue...

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Jason Schulman
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | 19  


 QUOTE:
I'll be selfish about it.  The Superman of the last twenty years, the John Byrne Superman, is also MY Superman, and he's basically been wiped away just like that.


It's no different than what happened in 1986, when the Superman of the Weisinger/Schwartz years was "wiped away, just like that." And that guy had been around almost thirty years.

And the new reboot is somewhat less drastic than the '86 reboot -- it's clear that various stories from the "post-CRISIS" era are still part of the "new" Superman's backstory, albeit somewhat modified.

As for the Legion in the JLA/JSA crossover not being the Legion in the current LEGION book. I'm sure this will be explained. Maybe on "New Earth," young Clark Kent first appears in the 31st century after Supergirl returns to the 21st century? And the statues in the Fortress represent the Waid/Kitson Legion's future?
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Jason Schulman
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 20  

I don't think Johns and Meltzer (or Busiek, over on Superman) are being archeologists in this case. They simply like the Silver Age Superman mythology and are bringing it back, in somewhat altered/updated form. And they're not bringing back anything obscure, really. Bringing back "Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes" (minus the "Superboy" name, due to legal reasons) hardly seems like "archeology." Especially not when there's a Saturday morning cartoon out now based on it! 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | 21  

Bringing back "Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes" (minus the "Superboy" name, due to legal reasons) hardly seems like "archeology.

***

The last time Superboy had anything to do with the Legion was 20 years ago. If that doesn't seem like "archeology" to you, you have been reading comics far too long.

As I have said many times, I don't care if they wipe away every trace of every book I have ever worked on. I just wish they'd stop doing so by pressing the REWIND button. That's just creative bankruptcy.

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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 22  

Exactly. The rewind button is what causes all these messes and aggravation. Bringing back a character or concept from the past can be fine, under the right circumstances. I see no need to "rewrite history" to accomplish this. It just seems like performing brain surgery to fix a hangnail. 
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Zaki Hasan
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 23  

And the statues in the Fortress represent the Waid/Kitson Legion's future?

*****

Not unless Starboy magically changes race at some point between the distant future and the even more distant future.
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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | 24  

IMO, I look at it as "righting a wrong".

Besides, the fanboy in me gave out a silient cheer when I saw Wildfire.

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Jeff Albertson
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Posted: 26 April 2007 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 25  

John Byrne wrote:


 QUOTE:
Look what happened after "The Flash of Two Worlds", very possibly the last gasp of the true "Silver Age". And why did Hawkman get those silly wings on his helmet?  

All fan-think.


Weren't Hawkman's helmet wings added by Gardner Fox and Joe Kubert as "Honor Wings" in the second Brave and Bold run? 
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