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Topic: JB at what specific incident did you stop liking Wolverine? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Daniel Kendrick
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | 1  

That one panel put an end to all those debates along the lines of "Is Doom horribly disfigured (the Stan Lee view) or did he suffer just a tiny nick that marred his perfection and his ego equated that scar to total disfigurement (the Jack Kirby view)?"

Actually the way I read it John had his cake and ate it too.
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 2  

We need the back-story to Wolverine like we need a prequel to Sergio Leone's "Man With No Name" trilogy.

Wolverine at his best is an unsettling character: vicious but honourable; far from a paragon and more anti-hero than hero. There should be an air of mystery about him, this edge that you (as well as his teammates) just don't quite know where things stand. I don't see how you improve the character when you blunt that edge through a ham-handed back-story.

The art of a really good reveal is that you raise more questions than you answer. It's a natural extension of the Samuel R. Delany thought that "Endings, to be useful, must be inconclusive."



Edited by Matthew McCallum on 05 October 2007 at 6:43pm
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Matthew McCallum
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Matthew McCallum wrote: That one panel put an end to all those debates along the lines of "Is Doom horribly disfigured (the Stan Lee view) or did he suffer just a tiny nick that marred his perfection and his ego equated that scar to total disfigurement (the Jack Kirby view)?"

Daniel Kendrick: Actually the way I read it John had his cake and ate it too.

Hey, you put a glowing-hot faceplate on anybody's kisser and it's going to leave a mark!

But I'm referring to that close-up scene in the mirror. After years of being bathed in shadow and shown in long shots, Von Doom's injuries were there on display for all to see.

Now, Doom disfigured HIMSELF when he put on the smoldering mask, and that's why that debate was so significant. If he was horribly scarred from the blast, affixing a red-hot mask to his marred flesh is certainly painful, but not as extreme as a man who craves perfection to the point that a mere blemish may as well be total disfigurement and he completes the job himself.

It's like the "Is Batman psychotic?" debate. Some say, "Of course, how could he not be?" Others, like myself, feel he's the last sane man in an insane world. Either way, I don't want to read a comic where Bruce Wayne undergoes a full psychological assessment and the question is answered definitively. The debate is just too much fun!



Edited by Matthew McCallum on 05 October 2007 at 6:43pm
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Aki Himmanen
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 7:29pm | IP Logged | 4  

 Derek Muthart wrote:
Romulus and Remus, two brothers raised by a wolf, that created the Roman nation, employ lupine soldiers (Wolverine and Sabertooth) to do the dirty work.

Interesting, especially since the wolverine is part of the family mustelidae, and is a relative of the weasel and the mink.


Edited by Aki Himmanen on 05 October 2007 at 7:30pm
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Peter Svensson
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 5  

What's worse is learning why Marvel picked that specific origin for Wolverine. Demographics. By making Wolverine a rich little boy they hoped to make him more palatable for their target audience, rich little boys. Bill Jemas revealed as much in an interview.

Personally, I think that Marvel should have released an anthology of different takes on Wolverine's origin so that none of them would be right. Like how DC did the Secret Origin of the Phantom Stranger. Chris Claremont's origin. Len Wein's origin. Roy Thomas's origin. John Byrne's origin. Cockrum's origin.
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Michael Huber
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 6  

Derek Muthart wrote:
Romulus and Remus, two brothers raised by a wolf, that created the Roman nation, employ lupine soldiers (Wolverine and Sabertooth) to do the dirty work.


Interesting, especially since the wolverine is part of the family mustelidae, and is a relative of the weasel and the mink.
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------

Wel, now I have to ask,,,what family does the sabertooth belong to?

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Mike Norris
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 7:57pm | IP Logged | 7  

Kitty cat
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Peter Svensson
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 8  

But I'm referring to that close-up scene in the mirror. After years of being bathed in shadow and shown in long shots, Von Doom's injuries were there on display for all to see.

That wasn't an objective shot. That was what Doom wanted to remember. It was a biased account of events.
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 9:08pm | IP Logged | 9  

I like the character as an icon, but the current version is simply one I'm unable to have any interest in (James Howlett?!)
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 9:16pm | IP Logged | 10  


 QUOTE:
Yeah, they haven't yet fully revealed what's going on, but apparently Wolverine and Sabretooth were lupine soldiers working for a guy named Romulus in ancient times.  Or, they're remembering someone else's life.  It also involves Wild Child.  Ok, my head hurts...

The good news is this seems to undo the Origin story.  The bad news is that it's as bad as an idea.  What are they, like werewolves or something?

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Roger A Ott II
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | 11  

Derek Muthart: Romulus and Remus, two brothers raised by a wolf, that created the Roman nation, employ lupine soldiers (Wolverine and Sabertooth) to do the dirty work.
________________________________

Gak!  That's even more ridiculously and insipidly stupid than Origin.

Wow.  Just wow.
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francis tsai
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Posted: 05 October 2007 at 11:39pm | IP Logged | 12  

Peter Svensson: "Personally, I think that Marvel should have released an anthology of different takes on Wolverine's origin so that none of them would be right. Like how DC did the Secret Origin of the Phantom Stranger. Chris Claremont's origin. Len Wein's origin. Roy Thomas's origin. John Byrne's origin. Cockrum's origin."


That's a really good idea - seems like a good way to have the cake and eat it too. The "mystery man" concept is preserved but you still have all the dissection/deconstruction you would want.
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Francesco Vanagolli
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 12:03am | IP Logged | 13  

Derek Muthart:

 QUOTE:
Romulus and Remus, two brothers raised by a wolf, that created the Roman nation, employ lupine soldiers (Wolverine and Sabertooth) to do the dirty work.

Wow. Now Wolverine has a place in the history of my Nation, too.

The end? For me, it was when they gave him the solo title. By the way, ORIGIN was the last nail in Wolverine's coffin.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 2:43am | IP Logged | 14  

If it were only Wolverine being a wolf-being, I would just roll my eyes, but the story implies that most feral mutants are actually descendants of a separate species of man that evolved from wolves. (Who have somehow intermingled with regular humans with no problem. I guess if you can have babies with aliens, you can have babies with wolf-men.)

The story's is not over yet, so I guess this could be all a ruse by the villain who could count on everyone being idiot. I mean despite the theory that the feral mutants were descended from wolves, the gathered group that gave rise to this theory included Feral and Thornn, two cat mutants, and Sasquatch, who isn't a mutant and, you know, a mythical sasquatch. It makes sense that the apelike sasquatch is more closely related to wolves, right? Walter Langkowski and T'Challa need their science degrees revoked for even being in this story.
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Mikael Bergkvist
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 4:03am | IP Logged | 15  

M***** can be accused of a lot a things, but sientific accuracy is't one of 'em.
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Carmen Bernardo
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 4:57am | IP Logged | 16  

Reading JB's response to the Logan/Mariko question makes me recall how he explained it a year or so ago.  It sounds a hell of lot more powerful than anything that Marvel is coming out with these days and fits the character as I remembered him back in those days, too.

Wolverine (and any Marvel character, for that matter) is a cypher today.  Anyone who gets a job writing for Joe Quesada's Marvel seems to be allowed to come in a mess with his origin (and fans' heads) in any manner he/she feels like doing.  That kind of policy is what finally drove me away from Marvel in end.

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Derek Muthart
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 6:23am | IP Logged | 17  

That kind of policy is what finally drove me away from Marvel in end.

****************

I still read Marvel books, but not with the enthusiasm I used to.  I take each story on a case by case basis and assume the next time I visit the character everything will have changed.  For me, the current versions of Wolverine and the X-men are unreadable, whereas, the new Thor book has sparked my interest.

Unfortunately, DC seems to be falling into the same trap.  Did we really need an Infinite Crisis?  These Crisis types of events should only be used to clean up continuity, instead Infinite Crisis only made things more confusing.

 

 

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Aki Himmanen
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 18  

 Mike Norris wrote:
Kitty cat

There was also a sabre-tooth marsupial known as the thylacosmilus.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 19  

To be fair, John, you pulled back the curtain and showed me what Victor
Von Doom's face looked like after the explosion. That one panel put an
end to all those debates along the lines of "Is Doom horribly disfigured
(the Stan Lee view) or did he suffer just a tiny nick that marred his
perfection and his ego equated that scar to total disfigurement (the Jack
Kirby view)?" (Personally, I always found that to be a more satisfying
debate than "Who is stronger: The Thing or the Hulk?")

•••

The Great Debate ove Doom's face was a fan myth. There was never any
suggestion in the books themselves that his face was anything other than
horribly disfigured. As Kirby drew him in the post-explosion flashback in
FF5, in fact, Doom's bandaged profile clearly shows he doesn't even have
an external nose any more.

Then the story started circulating that Kirby wanted Doom to have only a
minor scar, and it be his tremendous ego that rendered this, in his own
mind, a hideous disfigurement. Again, nothing in the books themselves
to support this (and, since Kirby drew him without a nose we can
assume Jack had changed his mind on this idea before he penciled
FF5). Anyone who saw Doom's face recoiled in horror. Even Don Blake, a
doctor, was repelled by what he saw.

A segment of fandom, however, grabbed hold of this little legend and
turned it into yet another Stan vs. Jack story. So I silenced them, by
saying both versions were true. (Now, go after me for that,
since it clearly contradicts Kirby having drawn Doom without a nose.)

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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 6:50am | IP Logged | 20  

…the wolverine is part of the family mustelidae, and is a relative of the
weasel and the mink.

•••

Don't cloud the issue with facts!
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Martin Redmond
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 21  

Speaking of crappy origins, don't forget Nightcrawler's new origin of being born by a demon/angel family branch of mutants. One reason I like mutants is that they have no origin, they just get powers and who cares.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 8:28am | IP Logged | 22  

Roger Stern used to say there was nothing to write for a mutant's origin.
"One night in the back of a '57 Chevy..." and you were done.

Problem is, it's not only the bulk of the readers who have forgotten what
a mutant is, in the context of the Marvel Universe, it's most of the writers
and editors, too. If your dad's a demon, you're not a mutant unless you
can be shown to have some abilities different from either parent -- and
even then it's a bit dodgy. (Namor, for instance, is a mutant not because
of the mingling of human and Atlantean DNA, but because of his ability to
fly.)

Nightcrawler was always a bit dodgy, of course. From my first
reading of GIANT-SIZED X-MEN thru my years of actually working with
the character, I was very aware that he violated Stan's original description
of mutants, ie someone with an (singluar) eXtra ability. Nightcrawler,
with his appearance, his prehensile tail, his ability to cling to any surface,
his teleporting, his glowing eyes and his (since forgotten?) ability to turn
invisible "in shadow" was a whole troop of mutants rolled into one.

Wolverine, at least, had "only" his healing factor -- until "mutant healing
factor" became everybody's toy.
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David Ferguson
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 8:28am | IP Logged | 23  

I like mutants is that they have no origin, they just get powers

*******

Stan's reason for creating them. He didn't have to come up with some radioactive chemical type origin. They were just born that way.

On Nightcrawler: possibly the worst X-men story ever.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 24  

Wolverine, at least, had "only" his healing factor -- until "mutant healing
factor" became everybody's toy.

********************

When did his "super-senses" come into play?

RE: Wolverine and Sabretooth being Roman wolf-people: if this is what Loeb has come up with, I shall probably never buy another book of his ever. I mean, he decides Origin is no good and he comes up with this?!? Jesus.

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Lance Hill
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Posted: 06 October 2007 at 9:03am | IP Logged | 25  

When was Wolverine given an enhanced sense of smell?

EDIT: Never mind, had the reply window open too long and got beaten to it.

Edited by Lance Hill on 06 October 2007 at 9:04am
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