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Topic: Whatever happened to the X-Men? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Victor Rodgers
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 1  

If it means anything your run on AWC is my favorite take of good guy Magneto. I liked that he had done very bad things and he wanted to change. Rather than the normal "Oh he was never bad to begin with. He was a freedom fighter."

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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | 2  

I'll take even the earlier, allegedly less nuanced versions of Magneto by Stan Lee and Roy Thomas over so-called multi-dimensional versions.  He works best as a would-be despot and hate-mongerer.

Edited by Paulo Pereira on 14 December 2007 at 12:10pm
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Eric Lund
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | 3  

X-Men 112 and 113(Byrne/Austin) were the last appearance of Magneto as far as I am concerned
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Jason Schulman
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 4  

Magneto can be a complete villain, and still be multi-dimensional. It's just lazy writing that requires an easier path.

I don't think what Claremont did to Magneto was "lazy writing" so much as completely ill-thought-out writing. The background he gave Magneto would've been great for some other, completely new character. Just not for Magneto!
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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 5  

Problem is, when most people say this they mean they want characters who are
conflicted, confused, misunderstood.

In my comics reading (and other media as well), I always preferred characters who were confident, in control, and heroic (an example would be Silver Age Superman).

Many folk today consider those types of characters boring, but not me <g>.

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Larry Morris
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 1:54pm | IP Logged | 6  

 
<<Its not self defense. But Magneto had just that much wiggle room. Magneto had not yet attacked innocents directly. He said he would not if his demands were met.>>

Yeah, if you allow him to rule the world.  Is that what they were supposed to do so he wouldn't kill people? 

<<If I remember the story right. The other nations had told the commies not to attack Magneto til they decided on a course of action. At least until they could get ahold of the Avengers. But the Russians out of fear of superhumans wanted to take out Magneto themselves and escalated the conflict.>>

It has been a long while since I read the book, but the Russians logically would be moe anxious than the others.  They're the ones whose city was destroyed.  

<<Magneto's position would be if they had not attacked him, they would not be dead. >>

And their positon would be, if you hadn't held the world hostage we wouldn't have attacked you.

<<Thats not to say he is right. But the story definately painted the commies in a negative light, with the position they had it coming.>>

They had it coming? I don't recall that, but, again, it's been awhile since I read it.  Maybe I'll look at the book again.  Another thing, you have to consider Magneto's history up until that point.  He has a history of terrorist actions.  There is plenty of reason for them to believe that he's not bluffing.  

It's not like it's been verbal threats coming from a new character.  This guy has destroyed a city telling you that the next time it'll be a populated one if you don't meet his demands.   

I can give you some examples of Magneto doing "bad" things where I can somewhat see his position, killing Zaladane would be an example. I don't see this as one of those examples.

You mentioned JB's AWC and for people who don't think he can write Magneto as more complex, read that.  Most of that is the Avengers attacking him because Wanda went with him willingly.  He actually saves Iron Man once and tries to another time.  But that's how the character had been established at the time.

Hidden Years Magneto was a rat bastard which should have been no problem to even Claremont Magneto fans.  JB portrayed him as he was portrayed at the time, as an evil bastard.
 
<<I especially liked how Magneto recovered from being a cripple hit with an atom bomb within 2 issues, build a whole fake prison program in China to fake he was a prisoner because HE KNEW ALL ALONG the X-Men would just HAPPEN to rescue him. Then somehow engineered Weapon X out of his old Satelite M or w/e his space station's called, PLANNED ALL ALONG for Jean and Wolverine to be in it so he could HURL THEM RIGHT INTO THE SUN HAHAHA, then have Jean be stabbed to death, sent into the sun, resurect herself AND Wolverine AND rebuild the whole damn shuttle AND being herself back with Logan & Shuttle ALL THE WAY BACK to earth only to suddenly die from 10 000 heart strokes from Magneto like he had become some god damn Street Fighter character or some crap. Cause Jean can recover from being sent into the sun but heart failure and that's it. Bites the dust forever.

And Magneto's explanation was Morrison's one trick pony since Doom Patrol: nanotechnology omg. So all in all, Grant's Magneto was a big load of YES I PLANNED IT ALL ALONG NO MATTER HOW NONSENSICAL HAHAHAHAHAHAH! bullshit.>>

Oh, the plotting was contrived all right, but I do think that he planned Xorn as Magneto all along.
 
 
<<Morrison having Cyclops euthanize somebody was enough for me to steer clear.>>

Didn't like it, but I could get past it.  Having him commit adultery on his wife was where they stopped getting my money.  I dropped every X book on the spot.

<<In my comics reading (and other media as well), I always preferred characters who were confident, in control, and heroic (an example would be Silver Age Superman).

Many folk today consider those types of characters boring, but not me <g>.>>

Same here, but often times I think we're a dying breed.  They're superHERO comics.  If I want a mishmosh of greys I'll turn on the tv or read the paper.  The real world is filled with that.  That's not what I read superhero comics for. 
 

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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 7  

If you're asking what acts each of us, individually, could never forgive someone for, I'd bet that each person here would have completely different answers.

••

Which is why I asked. . . .


Got it. Like I said, me, personally, I'm not going to pal around with someone who tortured or tormented me at any point in my past. I think it's actually a bit weird that Peter Parker stayed in touch with Flash Thompson one second past high school graduation, let alone asking the guy to be best man at his wedding, but I'm sure we've all had friendships and various other relationships completely change over time, sometimes over a single incident.

If someone were to blow up my hometown, whether everyone had evacuated it or not, I probably wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt the next time I saw him.
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Victor Rodgers
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 8  

Larry im not disputing it. But Claremont definately put the commies in a negative light. The other countries wanted to wait til the Avengers were avaiable and stall Magneto to avoid loss of life. The commies were overzealous and paid for it. The story certainly showed them more as victims of their own arrogance than Magneto. If they had waited for the Avengers they would still be alive.



Edited by Victor .R. Rodgers on 14 December 2007 at 2:28pm
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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 9  

That's not what I read superhero comics for. 

I agree. I personally look to comics for escapism and entertainment, to make me forget about the problems and horrors of the 'real' world <g>.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 10  

Claremont definately put the commies in a negative light. The other
countries wanted to wait til the Avengers were avaiable and stall Magneto
to avoid loss of life. The commies were overzealous and paid for it. The
story certainly showed them more as victims of their own arrogance than
Magneto. If they had waited for the Avengers they would still be alive.



Or Magneto -- based on his previous established behavior -- could have
decided he'd waited long enough and started blowing up inhabited cities.

Neville Chamberlain came home with a piece of paper from Adolf Hitler
that said Germany was going to behave itself and not got launching
unprovoked attacks on neighboring countries. Look how well that turned
out!

Nothing Magneto had been seen doing in his past exploits afforded any
reason to trust him. And, as noted, inhabited or not, he had launched an
unprovoked attack upon a Russian city. if you want to play the "war" card
-- which, as I have noted, is invalid in any case -- destroying a city is an
act of war. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the US response
was not to say "Let's wait and see what they do next!"
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Victor Rodgers
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 11  

I just took it as stalling for time til the Avengers were ready. But I understand why the Russians attacked Magneto. Even though it was foolish and accomplished nothing.
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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 10:41pm | IP Logged | 12  

I have to admit that I really liked what Claremont did to Magneto by showing a more "softer and gentle" side to the character. I liked that he was taking Magneto down the path of redemption.

That all being said, I think it was a bad idea to totally redeem Magneto and have him join (and lead) the X-Men. In fact, I'll go as far as say that Magneto should NEVER have been taken down the path of redemption to begin with. It was wrong for Claremont to turn the X-Men's greatest villain into a "good guy". The more I think about it, the more I think that Claremont would have created a brand new villain who had the redeemable qualities that he forced on Magneto.
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Peter Svensson
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | 13  

You know what's scary, that all the following have been X-Men at this point: White Queen, Juggernaut, Magneto, Sabretooth, Mystique. Claremont made Xavier the king of "Everyone can be redeemed!" with having Rogue join up. Now there's almost as many ex-villains as there are heroes on the team.
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Mike Farley
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Posted: 14 December 2007 at 11:41pm | IP Logged | 14  

And who has replaced all those villains?

Who is the X-Men's archenemy now that Magneto is "reformed"?

That's the real problem in my eyes. All those characters have been taken off the villain playing field. And they haven't been replaced.

Seriously when was the last time a  good new MAJOR villain was introduced? Maybe Apocalypse or Mr. Sinister (not that I think much of either of them)? That was like 20 years ago.

If they keep eliminating X-villains eventually we'll have issues where Scott stands around for 22 pages whining about how he has to wear glasses all the time.


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Greg Reeves
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 15  


 QUOTE:
If they keep eliminating X-villains eventually we'll have issues where Scott stands around for 22 pages whining about how he has to wear glasses all the time.

Haha- he doesn't even do that anymore in Astonishing X-Men, because he doesn't need to wear glasses after some kind of Emma Frost mind attack or something!  As for villains, right now in the Messiah Complex storyline, the team has or is facing the Marauders (weren't some of them killed during Mutant Massacre?) and the Acolytes, both lead by Sinister, as well as the weapon X style Reavers.  They also have the Purifiers, which is a church-based well-armed mutant hate group.  Mystique has apparently betrayed them (wow!) and joined up with Sinister as well.  In Uncanny, the team recently faced a splinter group of Morlocks lead by Masque, and in self-titled X-Men, there was a new group of genetically enhanced foes named Children of *something* (can't remember!).  Magneto was de-powered after House of M, but I'm not sure if that has been altered since.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 8:54am | IP Logged | 16  

I have to admit that I really liked what Claremont did to Magneto by
showing a more "softer and gentle" side to the character. I liked that he
was taking Magneto down the path of redemption.




Usually, I am quick to point out how the InterNet would have had a
profoundly negative effect -- as it does today -- if it had been in place
twenty, thirty, forty years ago. How things like the DC rebirth in the
1950s would have most certainly died aborning had InterNet chat rooms
and forums been around, where a small group of vocal fans could make
themselves seem like an army screaming against this utter abandonment
of cherished "continuity".

In the case of Magneto, tho -- yeah, there I kinda wish the InterNet had
been around. Or at least some major force that could have screamed
"Why are you turning Magneto into a half-assed clone of Doctor Doom?"
and cataloged each and every way in which this transformation violated
the long standing continuity.
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Ben Schwartz
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 17  

Has anyone here read X-men (2nd series) #85?  It has gorgeous Alan Davis artwork and a story by Davis, scripted by Joe Kelly.  I believe this story is a perfect example of how Magneto can be a multi-layered yet purely evil character.  The plot, in a nutshell, is this:  on the day before his latest planned attack on humanity, Magneto decides that he will give the humans one last chance to save themselves.  He disguises himself as a human and strikes up a conversation with a construction worker--an everyman, if you will.  If this everyman can show tolerance towards mutants, humanity will be spared.  Well, Magneto tosses several loaded questions at the guy, but the construction worker proves to be a thoughtful, tolerant guy.  Magneto gets more and more annoyed that he cannot find any shred of bigotry, until he finally reveals his true nature, threatens the guy, threatens his family and pretty much terrorizes the guy into saying something anti-mutant.  At this point, Magneto basically says "there, I told you so" and prepares to go forth with his attack as planned.  Now THAT is one selfish, petty, EVIL bastard!
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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 18  

Yeah Ben, I read that story. I also thought it was pretty good. I agree with you that Joe Kelly perfectly nailed Magneto's character in that story.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 19  

Now, THAT sounds like Magneto!
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Gerry Turnbull
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 20  

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Gerry Turnbull
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 21  

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Gerry Turnbull
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Gerry Turnbull
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Gerry Turnbull
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 4:01pm | IP Logged | 24  

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Bob Neill
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Posted: 15 December 2007 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 25  

Powerful stuff...I can imagine Magneto's unspoken 'Et tu, Brute?' in the third-from-last panel!
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