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Topic: What constitutes a swipe? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 1  

"Again--it's almost "outsider art" because of its faults."

In regards to Scioli's stuff, it appears to be fan art.

Lots of publishers have been presenting fan-fic as stuff worth paying for, but they at least get professional artists to draw the stories. Godland short cuts that process altogether.

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Trevor Giberson
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 2  

 Joe Zhang wrote:
In regards to Scioli's stuff, it appears to be fan art.

Lots of publishers have been presenting fan-fic as stuff worth paying for, but they at least get professional artists to draw the stories. Godland short cuts that process altogether.

Ahh Joe, how we've missed you.
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Paul Kimball
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 3  

I was thinking the same thing Trevor.
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Erik Larsen
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 11:51am | IP Logged | 4  

 John Byrne wrote:

As a big Nero Wolfe fan, I welcomed Robert Goldsborough's pastiches
because they furthered the adventure's of Wolfe and Goodwin. In some of
the novels, Goldsborough actually wrote in Rex Stout's "voice" which is
what I wanted him to do and I suspect most other fans would agree. Did
Goldsborough swipe Stout?
••

Here's a question, tho -- did Rex Stout intend that the Nero Wolfe stories
be continued beyond his direct involvement with them? Arthur Conan
Doyle gave his blessings (albeit in a backhanded way) to those who
continued the adventures of Sherlock Holmes, but many authors make the
assumption -- so implicit as to not even be conscious -- that their
characters would "die" with them.

This is not to say there is any kind of hard and fast rule. I have buzzing
around the back of my mind, my own sequel to H.G. Wells' "War of the
Worlds", for instance, and maybe I will even get it onto paper some day.
(It includes none of Wells' characters, except the Martians, and those in a
general way.) But often the "pastiches", especially of public domain
characters, go deep into regions we know the original authors did not
intend -- S&M versions of "The Wizard of Oz" for instance. Pornography
with characters from "Alice in Wonderland" and "Peter Pan".

It seems there is a great gulf between a continuation of something that
attempts to capture the original author's "voice", and "continuations" that
are exercises in self-indulgence by the modern interpreters. In the end,
are either truly desirable?

Back to Kirby -- he encouraged people to find their own "voice". He
understood that characters he had created but did not own would be
continued beyond his involvement, but he questioned why any writer or
artist would want to do so. Why they would not want to find their own,
new territory to explore. It leaves little doubt as to what he would think of
artists who deliberately mimicked his distinctive style. One can picture
him chomping his cigar and asking "What's the point?"


An inker pal of mine claimed to have overheard a conversation between
Chris Claremont and Jack Kirby. The X-Men/Teen Titans crossover had
just come out and Chris was showing it to Jack. Kirby's reaction was to
ask, "Why don't you make up your OWN damn characters?"

True or not--it begs the question: What if Jack Kirby DIDN'T WANT any
successive creators to continue the adventures of characters that he
created? We do know that he had often advised young creators to create
their own characters and find their own styles, after all.

More on this in a minute. First a few thoughts about Tom Scioli.

Every artist has to start somewhere. If you had gotten work in your Kirby-
clone period, the criticisms you level at Scioli now might very well have
been leveled at you.

I've talked to Tom on several occasions and his usual response is that he
can't think of a BETTER way to draw something. He's so in love with Kirby
and his work that improving on it is inconceivable to him and why would
he intentionally go out of his way to make his art look worse?

Again--for me--it goes beyond the art. There's an incredibly inventive
and creative mind at work with Tom, which comes up with a lot of
fantastic ideas. Ultimately, the comic book field is enriched thanks to his
contributions. If you don't agree--that's certainly your prerogative.
Nobody's forcing you to buy the books.

 John Byrne wrote:

What Kirby failed to recognized, as did Stout, was that his creations
would acquire a life of their own and would garner a fair amount of
affection from the public.
••

Said "affection" not extending to respect for the author's wishes?


In many cases--this sort of thing may require some mind-reading if the
author did not explicitly say what they wanted. Kirby was all about
creating new things and blazing new paths. Would he want successive
creators to pick up his ball and run with it?

Hard to say.

Certainly he wanted to "provide for his family" and he did authorize Topps
to do things with his characters. I suspect he might be pleased to see HIS
VERSION of Fantastic Four #102 be released. It was the version he had
intended to see print, after all, not the cut-and-paste version that was
reconfigured to become FF #108. The fact that his heirs received a
generous page rate for the pages that had not seen print would likely
have pleased Kirby as well. He's providing for his family from beyond the
grave. I can't imagine that he's call that "grave robbing." And remember-
-Kirby's heirs see nothing from most of the Marvel reprints. So this is one
of the few times that they actually received just compensation for Kirby's
work.

Is the Kirby Collector guilty of "grave robbing" as well? They're the ones
that originally ran the pages. When you inked a back cover did you toss
the Kirby Estate a few bucks when you sold the original art (and this is
presuming you did sell it--I don't know if that's the case)?

The morals of all of this stuff can get pretty dicy.

If Jack didn't want creators to continue stories that he began-- where
does that leave every creator to follow in his footsteps at Marvel? Where
does it leave everybody that has touched his creations at DC?

When Kirby's storyboards were handed out and used as a story in FF
#236--and Kirby received no compensation--how do you think Jack felt
about that? If that happened today would you gleefully agree to ink a
page or would that be "grave robbing" as well?

If the answer is "grave robbing" --why is it better to give a man the shaft
when he's alive than after he's passed away? In the case of the recent
release--why is it WORSE to pay Kirby's heirs for Fantastic Four The Lost
Adventure than to give Kirby nothing for Fantastic Four #236? Jack drew
Fantastic Four The Lost Adventure specifically to be a comic book--that
was his intent--not so with the FF storyboards. Those were simplified
pencils, devoid of a lot of the kinds of details that he'd put in his comic
book pages--they weren't meant to be seen--they were meant as guides
from which animators could turn those simplified illustrations into
cartoons.

It's been reported that Kirby didn't want his storyboard used for those
purposes.

What about the author's wishes?
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Jesus Garcia
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | 5  

Said "affection" not extending to respect for the author's wishes?

Nope. Not unless the author is the living legal owner. Society doesn't work that way.

There's the example of Arthur Conan Doyle "having" to bring back Holmes. Sure, publicly, he claimed to have agreed to restore Holmes after much convincing; but the post- Reichenbach falls Holmes stories are inferior to the earlier work, and not because the author's capacilities were diminished. Clearly, there was much reluctance in writing further Holmes tales. Doyle likened his relationship to his creation has having too much pate at a party and finding little tolerance for it afterward.

Then there's the fact that Kirby created the Silver Surfer and endured Stan Lee and John Buscema stamping their "origin" on his creation. Neither Kirby, Lee, nor Buscema had ownership of the character yet Kirby was the author and Lee pulled rank as editor to "finish" off in his way what someone else had started. (Kirby got smarter as he went along and delivered his origin of Galactus in the pages of Thor, much to Lee's iritation.)

Once authors becomes popular (meaning that they now have a steady revenue stream attached to their work), they have sold part of their souls to the public. Particularly if we are talking about a pay for play situation. Authors who plan to make a living out of peddling their particular species of work to a market, must conform to the market's whims or see the demand for their product disappear.

Many illustrators and writers might think of their work as existing purely in the air-rarefied plateau of high art but the moment they take money for their work, they place the work in the realm the economics of supply and demand. It's all about the money. Author's that achieve financial independance (full bellies and fat bank accounts) are in the best position to impose their wishes.

In Stout's case, the Wolfe property went to the hands of his estate as a valuable commodity (money!). It was the managers of his estate that decided to further the work because it is product. They own it, they can do what they want with it.

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Erik Larsen
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | 6  

 Joe Zhang wrote:

"Again--it's almost "outsider art" because of its faults."

In regards to Scioli's stuff, it appears to be fan art.

Lots of publishers have been presenting fan-fic as stuff worth paying for,
but they at least get professional artists to draw the stories. Godland
short cuts that process altogether


I disagree.

And the fans of Gødland would disagree as well.

A lot of people tend to present their opinions as fact. The reality of the
situation is that there have been professional artists and writers of
varying degrees of competence from the beginning of time. And taste is
very subjective. Some people would say Chris Ware's comics are stiff and
crude--that there's little understanding of anatomy or perspective at
work there--that his people look as though they're constructed out of
bags of oats. Others would argue that his work is brilliant--that his
characters feel authentic and that his anatomy and perspective is a
throwback to a different time. Some would say Fletcher Hanks was awful.
Some would say Basil Wolverton was awful--and there have been literally
hundreds of cartoonists over the years that have created work that is
considerably cruder and less visually compelling than the work of Tom
Scioli.

He IS professional--obviously--he's getting work, after all--and ditto all
the authors that you suggest are doing "fan-fic." as long as those stories
are being bought and paid for--it's not fan-fic. Like it or not--it's the
work of a professional. We don't have to agree that they're competent--
but because they're receiving a check in the mail--it's professional.
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Gerry Turnbull
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 7  

Conan Doyle allowed other authors to write Holmes while he was still alive,most notably the play by William Gillette, where Doyle famously said "you may do what you like with him"
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Jesus Garcia
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 8  

Scioli draws Godland. People buys copies of Godland. Scioli gets money for his work on Godland. That makes Scioli a PROFESSIONAL which is, after all, someone who makes a living (or part of it) at a profession.

A spectacularly talented -- but wealthy -- artist who draws a book and gives it away just for the pleasure of nurturing an admiring audience, is not a professional.

Refering to Scioli's work as fan-art is semantically incorrect and critically disingenous.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 9  

Can't wait for Citizen Zero!

••

Thanks -- but I'm not quite sure I get your context, vis this thread?
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 10  

While Mr. Scioli's work is certainly professional in a business sense, I don't know if it can be seen as such when compared to most professional comic art.

There must be a market for Scioli's level of work and there's nothing wrong with any publisher to pursue that segment. Many of us fans have an affection for other fans' stuff, and we look past the flaws. But after a while the affection wears thin, just as when Rob Liefeld's art stopped looking interesting to many of us.



Edited by Joe Zhang on 22 February 2008 at 12:24pm
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Jesus Garcia
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 11  

Gerry Turnbull

Conan Doyle allowed other authors to write Holmes while he was still alive,most notably the play by William Gillette, where Doyle famously said "you may do what you like with him"

True. But what Doyle objected to was not having his character's stories being told by other authors but to having to produce them himself. He wished not to be further encumbered with having to think up Holmes stories and his wishes were thwarted. Probably, he felt he had to "earn" the right to submit his less popular historical work for publication by keeping the Holmes cash-cow in a state of lactation.



Edited by Jesus Garcia on 22 February 2008 at 12:25pm
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Paul Kimball
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Posted: 22 February 2008 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | 12  

Jesus,
That kind of reasoning isn't appreciated, it sounds like you're trying to keep the discussion on a professional, respectful level.

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