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Erik Larsen
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 1  

 John Byrne wrote:
Does it hurt your head being so deliberately at
counterpoint to reality,
Erik?

I mean, seriously. You have lauded Liefeld as the new Jack Kirby. Must
you now defend his most obvious and least defensible habits? Must you
twist the words of others until they scream for mercy, trying to make your
ludicrous points?


I'm just playing devil's advocate--in both instances.

And at no point did I ever say or imply that Rob Liefeld "should" be hailed
as the new Jack Kirby, by the way. THAT is twisting MY words.

My point was that IF one was to "crown a new king" based on the
production of pages--there are a couple guys in the running, yourself
included--but that IF one was to "crown a new king" based on the
creation of characters who carried their own books--Rob Liefeld had the
distinction of having had the most books on the market (at that time)
featuring characters created by him (Cable, Deadpool, X-Force,
Youngblood, Team Youngblood, Supreme, Bloodstrike, Brigade and New
Men).

Which is NOT to say that I think that is wise, just or reasonable. But
simply that it was true that, at one point, there were more Liefeld-created
books on the market than from any single cartoonist other than Jack
Kirby.

I do not think, based on both criteria, that there is any one individual even
remotely qualified to wear the crown--and THAT was my point.   

My purpose in posting here was to try and get a working definition of the
terms "swipe" and "homage" because the ones I had heard seemed
unnecessarily vague.

It was certainly not my intent to applaud actions that I find reprehensible.
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Flavio Sapha
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | 2  

There's a great CAPTAIN AMERICA mini by RUDE, called WHAT PRICE
GLORY? ...
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Erik Larsen
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 3  

 John Byrne wrote:
I applaud Tom Scioli's efforts on Godland.

••

Well, hey then! Let's go dig up Kirby's bones so you can kick 'em around!

What Scioli is doing on GODLAND is what all the worst of the Kirby
imitators do -- grabbing for the stylization without any of the literally
decades of solid drawing that lies under and behind that stylization.
Kirby isn't just squared off fingertips and lots of little dots in explosions.
Kirby is a full body of work, and that body of work serves as a
counterbalance to those few shortcomings that seem to be all his
imitators can manage to capture.

A true fan, a true admirer of Jack Kirby should be disgusted by
GODLAND, not applauding it. (And Image, the Oh, Look! We are just
like Kirby! See how Marvel is Ripping Us Off! brigade, should be
ashamed for publishing it.)


Clearly you have not read much of Gødland or Tom Scioli's work.

What Tom seems to have access to is late-Kirby's wacky imagination. And
I don't mean Galactus or the Silver Surfer or New Gods--I mean that
bizarre stuff that spilled out of his brain and onto the page in Captain
Victory and Silver Star where Jack Kirby had more in common with an
"outsider artist" than the Kirby of Captain America through Kamandi.

Are there superior draftsmen? Oh, god yes. Is it worth publishing? I really
think it is. Few creators really channel that kind of loopy shit like Tom
Scioli.

His work is like the unlearned, unrestrained, enthusiastic efforts of a
child, unhindered by the rules and regulations that most creators have
internalized and adhere to.

His work IS crude--and it IS wrong. The underlying thought and structure
isn't there, I'll grant you--but there's an inventive mind at work there and
the fruits of those labors is often brilliant.

Edited by Erik Larsen on 21 February 2008 at 6:07pm
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 4  

One thing that I haven't seen pointed out, regarding the swipe/homage issue is that when, for example, Liefeld (IMO) swiped poses and panels, it likely made his job easier

When JB incorporates a page or sequence that is intended to combine his style and the original way it was drawn to mesh the past and present it is actually more work than just doing his own style(IMO).

One is a way to cheat, the other is a technique in storytelling.

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Wayne Osborne
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | 5  

"My point was that IF one was to "crown a new king" based on the
production of pages--there are a couple guys in the running, yourself
included--but that IF one was to "crown a new king" based on the
creation of characters who carried their own books--Rob Liefeld had the
distinction of having had the most books on the market (at that time)
featuring characters created by him (Cable, Deadpool, X-Force,
Youngblood, Team Youngblood, Supreme, Bloodstrike, Brigade and New
Men). "

Whoo, boy. Now we're gonna have to talk about the definition of creation.
Slapping new names on the Avengers, Superman, the Punisher, and
rearranging the New Mutants and the X-men doesn't seem like real
creation to me............at least not on the Kirby-level. Or on the level
you've demonstrated in your own work, Erik.

best,

WO
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Erik Larsen
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 5:59pm | IP Logged | 6  

 Andy Mokler wrote:

One thing that I haven't seen pointed out, regarding the swipe/homage
issue is that when, for example, Liefeld (IMO) swiped poses and panels, it
likely made his job easier.

When JB incorporates a page or sequence that is intended to combine his
style and the original way it was drawn to mesh the past and present it is
actually more work than just doing his own style(IMO).


That conclusion requires information that you can't possible have access
to.

I know that--for me--drawing flashbacks and incorporating poses
drawn by other artists--made my job easier. And the act of creating that
work really was no different than swiping. If anything, it took less effort
because nothing needed to be changed.
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Jesus Garcia
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 7  

You know, you've hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what appeals to me about Scioli's work: it's exactly the kind of wacky stuff the King was producing near the end of his comic-book career and before his second animation venture; when he pretty much indulged in producing what he wanted.

Some might argue that this was the King in decline, because of failing eyesight and general health. So what if it is? I'll take Kirby at 25% over most storytellers at 100%.

My one criticism about Godland is that I wish it had a black and white backup. Scioli's "The Senescal" looked great in B&W and I'd like to see more of it.

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Erik Larsen
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 8  

 Wayne Osborne wrote:

"My point was that IF one was to "crown a new king" based on the
production of pages--there are a couple guys in the running, yourself
included--but that IF one was to "crown a new king" based on the
creation of characters who carried their own books--Rob Liefeld had the
distinction of having had the most books on the market (at that time)
featuring characters created by him (Cable, Deadpool, X-Force,
Youngblood, Team Youngblood, Supreme, Bloodstrike, Brigade and New
Men). "

Whoo, boy. Now we're gonna have to talk about the definition of creation.
Slapping new names on the Avengers, Superman, the Punisher, and
rearranging the New Mutants and the X-men doesn't seem like real
creation to me............at least not on the Kirby-level. Or on the level
you've demonstrated in your own work, Erik.


Oh, I agree.

But regardless--the fact remains that there were all those titles that were
littering the shelves that he had a creative hand in. At no point did I say
they were "almost as good as" or "equivalent to" anything. I was just
saying, "there they are."
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Wayne Osborne
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 6:10pm | IP Logged | 9  

"Oh, I agree."

Awwwright! I'm not reading any further and proclaiming my victory right
now!

Peace out,

WO
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Wayne Osborne
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | 10  

But in all seriousness, couldn't those characters of Rob's be considered just
another form of swiping? How does that relate to what we've been talking
about?

WO
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Steve Swanson
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | 11  

Leifeld was one of those guys who would have been lucky to have the industry kick the crap out of him for a decade before he got a job (to improve his art, I understand his family really needed the money at the time so it was lucky for him personally that he got hired). Why? Because he actually had talent and if he had to work and learn his craft and get turned down and try some new stuff and learn anatomy and storytelling from the ground up he might have been one of the greats instead of... what he became.

That isn't meant to denigrate him, I honestly believe the man had a lot of potential and pissed it away. Which I guess could be taken as denigrating him. I also have sympathy, you get this cool job that you aren't really capable of doing so you do some unethical things just to keep the cool job. I like to think I wouldn't have done something like that in that situation but I'm not certain. 

For my own work, a guy told me that looking at a photo and doing a face of a different character (different species) qualified as a swipe and it stunned me. Why? Because it was freaking hard! I would have thought that a swipe would not have taken three hours to get right. If I had traced it maybe but it was a little picture in the paper and became a full page of my sketch book and I don't have a light box. Now that I have some intelligent information and viewpoints I think I can smile the next time someone calls a photo reference a swipe, then hand them a piece of paper and a pencil and invite them to 'swipe' just like I did.

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Tom Aquin
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 12  


 QUOTE:
But regardless--the fact remains that there were all those titles that were
littering the shelves that he had a creative hand in. At no point did I say
they were "almost as good as" or "equivalent to" anything. I was just
saying, "there they are."


I've always seen your comparission of Kirby and Liefeld as an extreme way of pointing out that, while there might be some artists who have drawn as many pages as him; or created many characters, using sheer quantity as elegibility for the 'crown' was stupid. There is no heir of Kirby, he'll always be king.


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