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Topic: Question for JB an homage to the Shroud? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Enda McDonagh
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 7:43am | IP Logged | 1  

I just noticed something; in Fantastic Four#278, it is established that Doctor Doom was actually largely disfigured when a monk in the Himalayas put a still hot newly forged metal mask on his face, and Doom then rushed out into the snow to cool the mask and his face down. This story was published in the 1980's.

Well, let us take a look at the origin of the Shrould published in the 1970's:
a monk in the Himalayas put a hot brand on his face and he ran out into the snow.

http://bp3.blogger.com/__p6Clhn9WDI/R84f49BIHOI/AAAAAAAACJk/ yz3_QHeSsjE/s1600-h/03-04-2008+08%3B14%3B47PM.JPG

http://random-happenstance.blogspot.com/2008/03/how-dcs-lawy ers-missed-this-i-have-no.html

Did that scene from the Shroud's origin inspire Byrne's revision of Doom's origin? If so, that is appropriate, as the Shroud was introduced in Super-Villain team-up as a foe of Doctor Doom.

 



Edited by John Enda McDonagh on 15 March 2008 at 8:57am
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Robert Cosgrove
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 2  

The monk putting the still-hot metal mask on Doom's face was established
in FF Annual #2, in 1964. Some disfiguration would seem to be implicit.
Whether making it explicit, plus adding the rush out into the snow was JB's
doing, or a later Lee-Kirby elaboration, I don't know. Maybe your title
heading should be the traditional "Question for JB"?
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John Enda McDonagh
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 8:55am | IP Logged | 3  

Ah, but Byrne definitly was the one who made it explicit that Doom's face was largely fine before the hot mask was put on. He also put in the scene of Doom rushing out to the snow to cool down the burning.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 9:03am | IP Logged | 4  

This is the first I have heard of the Shroud. My version of Doom's disfigurement was based on the office legend that Jack wanted him to have a tiny scar, while Stan wanted him to be hideously disfigured. If it is true that this is what Kirby wanted for Doom, it's clearly something he came up with later on, after the early adventures -- and particularly the origin -- were drawn, as there is really no way Doom could come away from having the scalding hot mask bolted on without it doing considerable damage. So, I decided to combine the versions -- small scar which plays to Doom's ego, and which becomes hideous disfigurement when the mask goes on.

Further evidence that Kirby either came up with the small scar version later, or went along with Stan's version right from the start, lies in the significant panel from the origin, shown in FF 5, where Doom clearly no longer has much of a nose!

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John Enda McDonagh
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 5  

Okay, so the scene in both origins of the person getting scalded and running out into the snow to cool it down was just a coincidence?

Too bad, I was kind of hoping you might have stumbled across that scene during research (as noted, the Shroud was created as a foe of Doctor Doom in Super-Villain Team-Up), and added it in to sort of show that these two were set on parallel tracks.

Whether intentional or not, it does add a little bit of depth to their enimity, since both of them underwent circumstances.  

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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 9:25am | IP Logged | 6  

I studiously avoided SUPER VILLAIN TEAM-UP. Even the title set my teeth on
edge. I was talked into doing a cover only because it offered what was,
then, a rare opportunity for me to draw Doctor Doom.
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 9:37am | IP Logged | 7  

JB -

What were you working on at Marvel when this issue came out?  I know you did Marvel Team-Up (Spider-Man & Warlock in the 70's).  I am most familiar with your work on FF (with and without Sinnott) and am having a hard time placing when you joined the ship and what you were doing when GSSVTU#1 was done.

 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 9:46am | IP Logged | 8  

I did the cover for SVTU 14, which had an October 1977 cover date, so I most likely drew it sometime in the summer of that year.* I remember that it was a rush job, and had to be turned around very fast, because the book was so late.

That would put it in the early days of my work on UNCANNY X-MEN, my first issue of that series having a December '77 cover date.


*I drew it in the Office, so I was most likely in town for the July convention.

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Lars Sandmark
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 9  


Dan,co-incidence, I just bought that issue a couple months ago.
John Bucema art.
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Lars Sandmark
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 10  


JB says THIS was a rush job, sheesh.
I loved this cover when I was a kid.
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Wilson Mui
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 10:07am | IP Logged | 11  

That is an awesome cover.
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 12  

That would put it in the early days of my work on UNCANNY X-MEN, my first issue of that series having a December '77 cover date.

Okay !  Good to know !

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David Kingsley Kingsley
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 13  

Never saw that cover before. Truly awesome.

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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 10:21am | IP Logged | 14  

Dan,co-incidence, I just bought that issue a couple months ago.
John Bucema art.

Lars -

John Buscema and Joe Sinnott too !  WAHOO !

I bought that issue (not the copy I posted) right off the rack the same month I bought FF #155 !  Buckler & Sinnott !  WAHOO !

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Joe Smith
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 10:21am | IP Logged | 15  

now THERE'S your cool-ass commission!
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 10:23am | IP Logged | 16  

Re: SVTU #14 -

The Avengers and the Champions bowing down before Dr. Doom . . . . that's scary when a person thinks of the ramifications !  The cover communicates total mastery!

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John Enda McDonagh
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 17  

Ah well, the Shrould is so obviously derivative in his origin (mugger killed parents), it was at least interesting to note that one bit of his origin seemed homaged later on.

http://random-happenstance.blogspot.com/2008/03/how-dcs-lawy ers-missed-this-i-have-no.html

Interestingly, when the Shroud debuted, Bruce Wayne's trip to Tibet was not a part of his origin. It was not added till the late 1980's, so far as I know. Of course, the Shadow's Oriental scholarship was already long established.

In an article for Comics Scene, David Goyer noted that he wrote a screenplay for Doctor Strange in the 1990's. He noted that he wanted to follow the origin storyline-a selfish, acquisitive man gets redeemed when going to Tibet and studying under a mystic. Then The Shadow came out in 1994 which features a similar origin. So he rewrote his Doctor Strange screenplay to not focus on Tibet. However, Goyer felt no compunctions about including Tibet in Batman Begins. Goyer stated this in Comics Scene #49.

Tibet and or the Himalyas or Himalayan Mountains have played parts in the history of the Cold People, Lizard Men, Blazing Skull, Vision, Thin Man, Dr. Strange, Dr. Druid, Doctor Doom, the Aged Ghenghis, the Ancient One, and the Undying Ones. Fu Manchu trained in Tatsienlu, Tibet. Minya Konka Mountain saw the site of the Rache Churan, the Monastery of Fear. There he learned martial arts, botany, medicine, and hypnotism. Thugben Sung runs the monastery now.

 

 

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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 18  

John -

Your research affirms that Tibet/Tibetan Buddhism is "huge" in comics !

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Darren De Vouge
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 19  

Tibet and or the Himalyas or Himalayan Mountains have played parts in the history of the Cold People, Lizard Men, Blazing Skull, Vision, Thin Man, Dr. Strange, Dr. Druid, Doctor Doom, the Aged Ghenghis, the Ancient One, and the Undying Ones. Fu Manchu trained in Tatsienlu, Tibet. Minya Konka Mountain saw the site of the Rache Churan, the Monastery of Fear. There he learned martial arts, botany, medicine, and hypnotism. Thugben Sung runs the monastery now.

***

Tibet was always a cliche for that kind of origin.

Stan Lee writes in his ORIGINS OF MARVEL COMICS, that he based Dr. Strange partially on an old radio show, he listened to in his youth called: CHANDU THE MAGICIAN.  Chandu likewise, had his origins in learning mystic arts in Tibet.

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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 20  

Darren -

I remember reading Lee's thoughts on Chandu and Doc Strange !  That's a fun book !

BTW: What was always "strange" to me is that DS became the Master of the Mystic arts while studying under the Ancient One.  This would have prepared him to traffick in Tibetan Buddhism, Tantric Hinduism, Bonism and Asian Shamanism or Animism.  But it would not have trained him to be a "master" in things like Voodoo, Black Magic, Witchcraft, Egyptian and Sumerian mysticism, etc.  I've always wondered, how and when did DS pick up all of these other skills that he is apparently proficient in? As much time as DS has been portrayed in meditation and study to become the master he is, it would take more than just a graduate or post-graduate course in world religions to enable him to be actively proficient in so many diverse fields of magic !



Edited by Dan Walsh on 15 March 2008 at 12:23pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 21  

What was always "strange" to me is that DS became the Master of the Mystic
arts while studying under the Ancient One. This would have prepared him
to traffick in Tibetan Buddhism, Tantric Hinduism, Bonism and Asian
Shamanism or Animism. But it would not have trained him to be a "master"
in things like Voodoo, Black Magic, Witchcraft, Egyptian and Sumerian
mysticism, etc.



Why not? The Ancient One was reeeeally ancient!
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 22  

Why not? The Ancient One was reeeeally ancient!

LOL !  Good one JB, I never made that connection !  But then again, when did AO get out of Kamar Taj (either physically or ectoplasmically) to learn about other forms of magic?  You don't suppose he just put the Darkhold under his pillow at night and learned all of this stuff osmotically?

Maybe this is something you can write/draw in the future?  Not the "osmosis" but AO's student years and travels !  Might make a fun ret-con !



Edited by Dan Walsh on 15 March 2008 at 12:34pm
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Darren De Vouge
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | 23  

If you want to be a master of the mystic arts, you've got to be dedicated!
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 24  

If you want to be a master of the mystic arts, you've got to be dedicated!

Well said Darren !  However, I understand "mysticism" as a supernatural/contemplative form of magic that doesn't embrace all forms of magic!  In short, DS would be more appropriately named: Master of Magic, if he is indeed master of all the forms we discussed above!

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Darren De Vouge
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Posted: 15 March 2008 at 12:49pm | IP Logged | 25  

No, please!  No more retcons!

I've always hated Batman's tibet retcon.

For Batman's origin, what appealed to me was that he was mostly self-taught.  All the stuff added later about him travelling around and learnings things in far off lands,  while interesting, kind of takes something away from what makes Batman Batman.

I always remember a certain Byrne/Aparo panel from UNTOLD LEGENDS OF THE BATMAN # 1 which shows Bruce Wayne working out as a lad in what looks like a basement gym.  The caption which was Batman's musings about those days read: "I was a pre-adolescent boy, impatient to be a man and the work was hard, but I welcomed it.  I needed it"

 

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