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Christopher Alan Miller
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 7:42am | IP Logged | 1  

With all this talk of the former Soviet Union, did any of the news outlets mention that Gori is the birthplace of Joseph Stalin?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yes

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Michael Retour
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 2  

The Russians sent a message: no more interference near Russia.  The world received the message loud and clear.  The West was humiliated because Georgia is one of its Bush's biggest successes, as was Lebanon supposed to be until Hezbollah proved Bush wrong. 

By the way, Russia is part of Europe.  I believe NATO used to estimate an ABC (atomic - biological - chemical) attack on the western part of Europe by the Russians would have them in Paris in a week or so. 

I would urge people to study history.

Israel and "Great" Britain more powerful than Russia?  Hezbollah defeated Israel and how many troops do the Brits have in Iraq?  They were routed in Basra by Iraqi unconventional forces and had to retreat.  Our own US forces, with all their technology, has been unable to subdue a tiny Third World nation we invaded.  To top it off,  when the US leaves Iraq the powers that come to dominate will not be so warm to the US no matter what they say now and if Hezbollah can defeat Israel imagine what a nuclear armed Iran could do backed by Russia. 

For years, the West has been foolishly trying to install regimes friendly to the West in former parts of the USSR.  Georgia is one of the puppet regimes.  Just look at the leadership and who funded the "Rose Revolution" and you will see what I am talking about.  The strategy has been to encircle Russia, a supposed ally.  Russia is "hip" to the game and won't allow it and there is nothing the West can do.  Did anyone believe they actually would allow this sort of thing to happen?  Let's say Poland came to Georgia's aid militarily.  Would the US follow suit.  Of course not.  That's WW III.  So, then what happens to Poland?  Crushed. 

Cheney sounds ridiculous. 

Yes, this was planned by the Georgians and whomever prodded them to attack South Ossetia.  Isn't that what happened?  Russia will crush them -- as if Georgia ever had a chance in the first place and what Putin said is correct. 

It's a mess when people suggest we attack allies, such as Pakistan.  People must believe the rest of the world is so stupid as the Americans who actually thought Russia was attacking the US state of Georgia. 

Russia has a lot of options: arm Iran, arm North Korea, cutoff oil and natural gas supplies and so on.  The West, crippled by a feeble economy and feeble armies, has few.  Times change. 

"The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) is an intergovernmental international organization founded in Shanghai on 15 June 2001 by six countries: China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Its member states cover an area of over 30 million km2, or about three fifths of Eurasia, with a population of 1.455 billion, about a quarter of the world's total. Its working languages are Chinese and Russian." - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/int/sco.htm
http://www.sectsco.org/

(My link function doesn't work for some reason.)

India, Pakistan and Iran have been added as observers.  The combined power makes the West a pushover unless war would go nuclear.  It is about military and economic power.  In fifty years we shall be importing mag-lev trains from China as are aging Amtrak cars decay even further.  Perhaps even Europe shall beg to join the SCO? 

The intent of the SCO is to develop Eurasia economically thereby making it the predominant superpower on the planet.  Wars are won by logistics and, as I said, unless a fool like Cheney intends to launch nuclear weapons Cheney and his pal Bush can do nothing except foment these idiotic adventures which only backfired on them, as did Iraq.  Russia called the West's bluff and the West did nothing and the world saw that weakness.  Georgia is a US ally and we did nothing except airlift Georgian troops from Iraq to Georgia where they could be defeated by the Russians. 

At least the Russians attacked a country allied to the US.  Russia has been around a long, long time and isn't stupid.  Americans believe "communism" was the dominant feature of Russia but study Russian history. 

This reminds me of an episode of Leno's Jaywalking. 

I apologize for the rambling post but I am quite busy with some work but felt like responding to a few posts above. 

Have fun,
Mike


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Pedro Bouça
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | 3  

The war seems to be over. As I imagined, the russians limited themselves to South Ossetia (and also Abkhazia), "cleaned up" the neighbouring regions and bombed the georgian military installations back to the stone age.

Western press seems to paint them as the aggressors, but it was the georgians who attacked South Ossetia first. The russians had been expecting that for some time now, mostly because the goergians had done the same on the separatist Adjaria region in 2004, with sucess. So, Christopher, OF COURSE the russians planned this, they knew it was going to happen sooner or later. They are not stupid!

But seemingly georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili is. He SHOULD have expected it to happen! Maybe he hoped to get NATO on his side, or to appear himself to be a victim of the Evil Russians, but in the end he killed a bunch of Ossetians (both sides can't agree on how many) and sacrificed the lives of part of his army for what amounts to nothing. Which is either callousness or stupidity. I prefer to think he is just stupid.
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Chris Hutton
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | 4  

I remember when the US could wrap up a war in a month or so.
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David Ferguson
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 5  

The Georgian President does seem to be using some propaganda (like exaggerating the extent to which Russia had entered Georgia) but I wouldn't believe everything either side tells you.

French (and current EU) President Sarkozy was made to look stupid standing next the Russian President as he used inflammatory language such as referring to Georgians as the agressors. Save that for when you're not standing next to someone who is trying to be neutral and trying to broker some peace.
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David Ferguson
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | 6  

There's no way the Russians didn't plan this.

*****

So, Christopher, OF COURSE the russians planned this, they knew it was going to happen sooner or later.

*****

They probably have a plan of action for all their neighbours. The US probably has one for Canada and Mexico.
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Carmen Bernardo
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | 7  

   Mexico, perhaps, but I don't think the Canadians have made frequent incursions across our northern border in apparent acts of aggression against less well-armed Border Patrol agents, unless there's something going on up there that we haven't been told about.  Also, I doubt that Canada is a major route for the international drug cartels transporting illegal narcotics into the US and, therefore, doesn't have (at least beyond a very small part) the risk of corrupt political and military officials working in conjunction with the smugglers and gangs.  Finally, I think the Mexicans are still feeling a little pain from their 19th Century loss in a war against the then-expansionist US and subsequent tensions raised by the cross-border conflicts raised by outlaws like Pancho Villa (a hero to some Mexicans and even a few US citizens who romanticize the archtype he inspired) and a loss of additional territory ceded to the states of Arizona and California to facilitate US infrastructure that would've had to cut its way through mountains further north.

   We also have a large portion of Spanish-speaking migrants who're pressing for bilingualism and resisting calls for making English the official language of the US all for mostly nationalistic reasons (reactions to Anglo-Saxon prejudices against Hispanics notwithstanding), a source of tensions not too unlike the French Canadians who agitate for separation from or formal autonomy within the majority English Canadian territories.  There are groups like La Raza ("the Race") who form a large part of this agitation, which seems to demand that public schools teach Spanish in addition to English (and not necessarily just as an elective course) and call for rights for illegal migrants (which causes tension with those migrants who actively and legally immigrate, even if they're doing so for seasonal employment within US borders)

   In this, the situation which led to the conflict between Russia and Georgia has its similarities: you have an ethnic minority in the Ossetians who're more or less dominated by the neighboring countries and have become somewhat assimilated into Russian culture, to which the Russians feel obligated for support in order to secure their own border along the Caucasus Mountains, against which the Georgians are strongly opposed.

   Georgia, perhaps feeling its oats (longstanding ethnic tensions building up, plus a history of armed conflict and often dictatorial rule -- Josef Stalin was a Georgian) took the fight to South Ossetian rebels within its own borders, to which the Russians reacted by sending an army in and bombing the hell out of Georgia until It wanted to give up the fight.  Russia isn't stupid.  Vladimir Putin and his successors (not necessarily men I would admire for their humanitarian aspects) saw the need to put their foot down.  Hundreds of civilians died (this is war, remember) and Georgia is calling for a ceasefire.

   I'll continue to watch the situation because, in addition to what it signals us as to how effectively (or not) we can affect matters in Russia's "near abroad", it might bear further watching as other former Soviet satellites have to be breaking out in a sweat at this.  Ukraine has already made some grumblings about not letting the Russian Black Sea Fleet return to harbor at Svestapol and there is tensions over the Crimean Peninsula between the two countries (who was there first).  East Bloc nations like Poland and the Czech Republic have also got to be feeling an itch.

   At this point, given the limitations of Western power and the signs that there is a point at which we must stop to think twice about moving in on the sleepy old bear, a change in policy towards a more cautious diplomatic course might be wiser.  However, if Russia goes all out and starts steamrolling neighbors and dragging them bloodied and crippled back into its control, I fear we may end up having to come to blows with them at some point, nuclear deterrent or no.  My hope is that cooler heads will prevail and we get a sort of "Detenté: Don't Cross This Line" agreement between East and West instead of the Apocalyptic daydream that some seem inclined to wish for.

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David Ferguson
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 8  

There was a plan for Canada.

War Plan Red

Here are some more colours:

War Plan Citron: an invasion of Brazil

War Plan Emerald: intervention in Ireland in conjunction with War Plan Red

War Plan Green: war with Mexico in order to establish a pro-American government

War Plan Indigo: an invasion of Iceland (in 1941, parts of the plan were actually used during Battle of the Atlantic when the US relieved British occupation forces)

War Plan Lemon: an invasion of Portugal

War Plan White: plan for dealing with civil disturbances cause by Communist insurgents
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Carmen Bernardo
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | 9  

   The above would be in place in case we had open hostilities with a government in Canada or Mexico (as is the case of Green) or any other country.  In other words, not much different from what the Russians have done in Georgia.

   The fact that we haven't had to use it means that the political climate hasn't been in that shape for some time.  Hopefully, it'll never need to be that way.

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Emery Calame
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 10  

War Plan Red was formulated when Celine Dion was thinking of moving to Florida.
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John Harrison
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | 11  

Unfortunately, I know of 3 people who seriously thought Russia did indeed invade the state of Georgia.....  I thought they were kidding.  I even commented to one by saying, "I didn't think the Braves were doing that badly in the standings."  She said she didn't think it was because of baseball that the Russians were attacking the US.

I just stared at her.  I really had no response.

How sad is that?



You might be a redneck....nevermind

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Michael Retour
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Posted: 12 August 2008 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | 12  

There was also a war plan for fighting against the British Empire.  That was War Plan Red and it Canada was Crimson.  War Plan Red was "live" until 1939.  Be that as it may I find it interesting Italy backed Putin during this conflict.

It isn't over folks.  The people who pushed Georgia into this dangerous adventure won't stop. 

The media here paints Russia as the "bad guy"?  What did you expect? 

The West and Georgia got what they deserved and if they continue to play in Russia's backyard, backing Chechen terrorists etc., the West may find itself more and more like Rome as it fell. 

It is a new world and the US isn't Top Dog anymore.  We don't even have the logistics to fight wars anymore except against tiny nations without modern arms. 


Edited by Michael Retour on 12 August 2008 at 9:15pm
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