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Joakim Jahlmar
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 October 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6080
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| Posted: 19 February 2009 at 7:42am | IP Logged | 1
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JB wrote:
”When he killed himself, he began the demonization process. Hitler is viewed today as an almost supernatural evil, not a clown. And that, I think, is a good thing.”
Yes and no, I think. One of the greater dangers with demonizing Hitler or the Nazis too strongly, I think, is that it makes it all too easy for far too many to forget that it wasn’t external forces of evil operating on mankind, it was a part of mankind showing our own terrifying potential for evil.
Which of course isn’t to say that their particular behaviour and actions aren’t worth demonizing, as long as we don’t conveniently ”forget” that the capacity for that is in our species and not external to it.
More JB:
”Some may recall my having mentioned before that upon arriving on UNCANNY I told Chris I wanted to do a Sentinel story, and his response was ’Sentinels are wimpy.’ ’No,’ said I, ’you write them wimpy.’ So I plotted a story in which the Sentinels basically kick everybody's behind and take over the world.”
Sentinels truly have the potential of being the Daleks of the Marvel Universe (or at least of the ”X-corner” of it), in o so many senses... the turning against their maker bit, the utter evil and unemotional attitude towards conquest, not to mention their capacity to be kickass villains (unless, in both cases, written weakly).
Incidentally, and in connection to the discussion on the Nazis... I recently had the opportunity to watch a Swedish made documentary about post-Franco Spain’s failure to deal both with their Fascistic past and the Civil War itself. Dealing with the mass graves that keep getting unearthed, etc, showing that while both parties of the Civil War killed a lot, Franco’s killed a WHOLE lot more, especially in the aftermath of the war. And still, it’s been problematic and not much addressed in Spain (though things are obviously moving ahead a bit more now). Anyway, if anyone gets a chance to view, it’s called Mari Carmen España: The End of Silence and I’d really recommend it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 19 February 2009 at 7:57am | IP Logged | 2
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”When he killed himself, he began the demonization process. Hitler is viewed
today as an almost supernatural evil, not a clown. And that, I think, is a
good thing.”
Yes and no, I think. One of the greater dangers with demonizing Hitler or
the Nazis too strongly, I think, is that it makes it all too easy for far too
many to forget that it wasn’t external forces of evil operating on mankind, it
was a part of mankind showing our own terrifying potential for evil.
••
Which is actually a subtext of the ANGEL story I am currently working on.
However, I think the demonization of Hitler was ultimately a good thing, for
altho it allows the weak minded to exalt him, even to this day, it also keeps
the rest of us on our toes. We are not likely to let "Hitler" happen again!
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Joakim Jahlmar
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 October 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6080
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| Posted: 19 February 2009 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 3
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JB wrote:
"However, I think the demonization of Hitler was ultimately a good thing, for
altho it allows the weak minded to exalt him, even to this day, it also keeps
the rest of us on our toes. We are not likely to let 'Hitler' happen again!"
That's a good point, JB. And it actually reminds of something the author of a new Swedish biography on Mussolini said in a seminar at the Gothenburg Book Fair in September last year. He also said that Hitler of whom more have been written was less likely to happen again, because we've sort of learned that lesson. Mussolini's brand of power hunger, however, looks frighteningly a lot like many modern politicians line of reasoning. He mentioned that Mussolini when early on after becoming his own man with his own party was questioned about what he and his party wanted, what their political program was, answered, "I want to lead." And this sort of power for personal power's sakeseems very much like a lot of present day politicians.
The author also pondered a bit on which evil was the worse, Hitler's Nazis or Mussolini's Fascist approach. And what concluded was kind of scary in its own right. He more or less said that while there is no doubt Hitler's insane beliefs are evil in every sense of the world, at least he was insane enough to believe in what he was doing as ultimately right (as scary and frightening as that is). Mussolini on the other did not share those beliefs in racial superiority or the necessity of the final solution (heck he didn't even like Hitler, and got along much more easily with Churchill) BUT went along with it as he believed it was strategic for his own accumulation of power (obviously a miscalculation in the end). And somewhere you've got to raise the question concerning who's the more evil, the utter maniac who believes his brand of evil to be good and proper, or the sane man who follows along just to gain more personal power and earn some money off it, while recognising the evil and insanity of the action itself.
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17669
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| Posted: 19 February 2009 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 4
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JB, speaking of Hitler, have you drawn him in any comic books other than the FANTASTIC FOUR and OMAC? If so, where? In what story do you think you best handled the terrible Nazi? (I can't recall whether or not he appeared with Golgatha during a flashback in DANGER UNLIMITED.)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 19 February 2009 at 8:57am | IP Logged | 5
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I drew Hitler in CAPTAIN AMERICA (of course!).
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: United States
Posts: 17669
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| Posted: 19 February 2009 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 6
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Yikes! My favorite JB one-shot and I forgot to include it. Danke!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 19 February 2009 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 7
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I was referring to the series, Wallace -- unless you consider the 40th
Anniversary issue a "one shot", which is reasonable, I guess!
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Joakim Jahlmar
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: Sweden
Posts: 6080
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| Posted: 19 February 2009 at 9:14am | IP Logged | 8
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Awesome issue that, on o so many levels.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15783
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| Posted: 19 February 2009 at 9:42am | IP Logged | 9
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Mussolini's brand of power-hungry totalitarianism is fairly common throughout history. Most absolute rulers were absolute pricks.
Unfortunately, history provides a lot of evidence that humans do have the potential to be complete shits given the wrong circumstances.
That said, Hitler did plough a new furrow in industrialised evil/madness: genocide on a heretofore unprecedented scale conducted with bureaucratic efficiency against people who were not enemies.
Even post-Hitler the world has been unlucky enough to be afflicted with other notably deplorable despots, all responsible for deaths on a scale comparable with Hitler: Josef Stalin (50 million Soviet citizens, depending on who you talk to), Mao Tse-tung (40 million chinese), Pol Pot (wiped out 1/4 of Cambodia's population in 3 years).
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