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Lars Johansson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 6113
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Posted: 23 May 2009 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 1
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That is, to my mind it's less of a problem if the marker Asian within your style would be yellow and slightly slanted eyes to trigger that understanding, than if you would draw someone fully realistically...
From what you wrote, Joakim, it looks like you misunderstood what I tried to show with the two pictures I posted. One picture is more realistic than the other, but I did not try to show cartoony versus realism at all. It was the angles of the eyes. In the European rasist version, the entire eyes are slanted: \ /
(also in JB's description of Chop Chop), while an Asian artist, not being affected by the myth draws the eyes like this - -
and still succeeds in portraying an Aisan face, even on a similar cartoonish level.
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Keith Thomas Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 April 2009 Location: United States Posts: 3082
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Posted: 23 May 2009 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 2
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I think people see what they want to see, in anime
characters are often given various hair and eye colors
sometimes on a whim sometimes to say something about the
characters personality but mostly to distinguish similar
looking characters. Many white people have asked why
they are drawn as "white" (but they have blonde hair and
blue eyes is the rational) but ask any Japanese person
and they'll tell you they look as Japanese as they do.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132333
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Posted: 23 May 2009 at 8:35am | IP Logged | 3
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…and then there are the Simpsons!
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17671
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Posted: 23 May 2009 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | 4
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Also, not nearly as cool as Wallace's avatar, which I think hits all of the
buttons and makes none of the mistakes while still being simple and easily
repeatable.
---
Thanks, Steve. If you visit my site, you'll notice that I tend to draw
characters with exaggerated features. On a few occasions, i've been
concerned that visitors might see unintended stereotypical caricature in the
various races and ethnicities depicted there. I sincerely hope that's never the
case.
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Steve D Swanson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1374
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Posted: 24 May 2009 at 2:42am | IP Logged | 5
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Thanks for the advice everyone, and a special thank you to Lars: Pointing out the differences in the two approachs helped me sort through it in my own mind. I was trying the first approach and having it look wrong while trying to modify it to look right but with the base being off I couldn't figure out a way to make it right.
A thinner rounded eye with a slight interior fold and I think I've got something that works reasonably well. I don't think it says Chinese at first glance but I think if I back it up with text every now and again (having the character speak Chinese for example) no one will be surprised to learn that he's Chinese.
I think it's important to have characters of different ethnicities because we live in a mixed world and too often I feel artists (and on tv, in movies, in books, etcetera), don't take that into account. I don't want to get in the habit of using a white character because I find them easier to draw and don't have to worry about offending anyone if I get wrong.
A side note; I wasn't reading the X-men when Psylocke became asian, but I saw her around and just thought she had gotten a new costume and styled her hair differently. I had absolutely no clue she was asian until someone actually told me. And the artist responsible for most (if not all) of the drawings I'd seen of her was actually asian himself (Jim Lee). Could be that it's just a difficult thing to portray in pencil and ink.
And yet... JB can do it and do it well. Which means a lot of practice but also I believe a lot of focus on making sure to use those ethnicities and use them well.
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Glenn Brown Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3095
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Posted: 24 May 2009 at 3:39am | IP Logged | 6
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As noted upthread, Steve, there's nothing inherently racist or discriminatory about artists drawing characters or even caricatures that are of a different ethnic group, even when the character is drawn poorly. Best thing I can suggest to you is to focus on the features that are used as landmarks and distill them down to basic shapes: the eyes, nose, lips, relative height of cheekbones. The basic layout of the structures themselves remain consistent from one group to the next but the shapes vary. Remember also that cartooning works through exaggeration...so things that in real life may appear subtle, you may have to emphasize to get across in your cartoons. As long as your intent isn't to mock or denigrate any group (and I know it isnt'), then you should be fine.
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Steven Myers Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5626
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Posted: 24 May 2009 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | 7
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I was thinking about this topic, and it seems every race can be drawn to some type of stereotype. For instance, many artists draw Captain America, Hank Pym and Clint Barton looking exactly the same, facially, out of costume. And then there's the Superman/Captain Marvel drawings where only the curl differentiates the two.
I recently decided to do a "kiddie" group, and it included a Japanese character. Mentally I pictured the character with just lines for eyes, then I decided there was no reason she couldn't have the overlarge eyes I was giving everyone else.
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Joakim Jahlmar Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 October 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 6080
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Posted: 25 May 2009 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 8
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Marc wrote: "Even odder, is that not only is Jesus portrayed as a white male in most
western churches, he is often shown to have light brown/blond hair and
sparkly light blue eyes to boot. "
I'm guessing he's some sort of mutant. Like Storm.
Lars wrote: "From what you wrote, Joakim, it looks like you misunderstood what I
tried to show with the two pictures I posted. One picture is more
realistic than the other, but I did not try to show cartoony versus
realism at all."
Ah, thanks for clarifying your point, Lars. I think I missed the first time around because of the distinct "cartoony vs. realism" quality in the two pictures you used. Became much clearer with the new image you used. :)
Wallace wrote: "Thanks, Steve. If you visit my site, you'll notice that I tend to draw characters with exaggerated features. On a few occasions, i've been concerned that visitors might see unintended stereotypical caricature in the various races and ethnicities depicted there. I sincerely hope that's never the case."
Oh, there'll most likely be at least a few, sadly, who do, Wallace. Which is not to say that the depictions are racist. Merely that some people become so concerned with depicting anything so remotely stereotypical that they see stereotypes in just about anything involving race. Which would leave us at an impasse where we could not depict it at all or depict it in fixed "non-racial" stereotypes instead. Neither of which seems a good option.
As an aside to the whole base question, it just struck me that one way of getting the tag "Asian" across in a more cartoony type of comic (as opposed to realistic) would possibly be to adapt Manga style for the Asian characters. Not sure it would work for other ethnicities (simply because I don't know if there are any as stylistically recognisable cartoon styles used), but it seems to me that that could be a functioning style choice... though it would of course be Japanese based.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132333
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Posted: 25 May 2009 at 7:08am | IP Logged | 9
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For instance, many artists draw Captain America, Hank Pym and Clint Barton looking exactly the same, facially, out of costume.•• Something I have worked very hard to avoid. Which is why I was less than thrilled when an editor -- coincidentally(?) the same one who had fired me off SHE-HULK -- used three side-by-side panels of the same shot of Hank Pym from my AWC, labeled as Rogers, Pym, Barton, to make a "joke" about how these guys were always drawn with the same face.
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Arc Carlton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 April 2009 Location: Peru Posts: 3493
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Posted: 25 May 2009 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 10
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They draw the same kind of face because it's easier for them. Instead of making a bit of an effort ...
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Martin Redmond Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006 Posts: 3882
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Posted: 25 May 2009 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | 11
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For asians, I usually tend to think of either the uppper of lower lid as a semi straight line, depending on the angle the face is being viewed from.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132333
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Posted: 25 May 2009 at 4:57pm | IP Logged | 12
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Time for this again…
MILESTONE: 56,000
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