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Topic: How to "fix" X-Men 3 for X-Men 4 (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 1  

Here's the source of the quote. It's not safe for work.....and not very funny, either.
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Larry Morris
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | 2  


 QUOTE:

Dark Phoenix could not have blown up that star without knowing the consequences. It just didn't care.


That's the way I always saw it.  Not premeditated murder, but indifference.  Think for 5 seconds and you know the reprecussions of the act.

It's why the retcon was always fine with me.  I didn't want Jean responsible for that.  I preferred her alive and in the X books.

I also thought that Beast was the best part of X3.  I think the first movie is the one where Cyclops had the most to do.  The scene with the comatose Xavier I think may have been the best Scott scene of the 3 movies.  It got Scott/Jean/Logan wrong because all the scenes are between Jean and Logan.  Then the audience wants Jean with Logan?  What did they think was going to happen?

By the time of the last 2 movies, I'd been so soured by what the comics had done that I probably wasn't as invested thus not as annoyed .    Still could recognize what a joke it was to have Logan essentially  take Scott's place with Dark Phoenix.  But seeing as how Logancentric the movies had been, I can't say as I was that shocked.

I'm all for Sam's idea, but I doubt Fox is.  I believe I just recently read that the next movie is called First Class and will feature at least some of the original team.  I'm almost sure that I saw Scott and Jean listed.
Not sure if it was all 5, though.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | 3  

Not premeditated murder, but indifference.

••

This may be just arguing semantics, but since I was wholly and solely responsible for that scene, it's kinda important to me that the proper intent be read from it.

Dark Phoenix deliberately blew up the star. It may have been indifferent as to whether there were inhabited planets orbiting said star, but that still comes down to premeditated murder. A crime committed during the deliberated commission of another crime. Like if you mug someone, and he later dies of a heart attack directly attributable to the mugging.

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Larry Morris
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 4  

Obviously, I will bow to you on the intent of the characters since you were directly involved in the creative process.

I always looked at it as Dark Phoenix, if she thought for 2 seconds about it, would realize that there might be inhabited planets.  She didn't care.  Not actively trying to kill them, but if they have to die for her to feed on that star, oh well.  Thus, she is responsible for the deaths of 5 billion sentient beings.

I know I've seen Claremont compare it, in narration, 
to someone stepping on an anthill.  She was at the point where the lives were completely insignificant to her. 
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Glenn Brown
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | 5  

Or, giving your dog a bath and not being concerned about the fleas inevitably destroyed in the process.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 3:09pm | IP Logged | 6  

…giving your dog a bath and not being concerned about the fleas inevitably destroyed in the process.

••

Hm. Not entirely an accurate analogy, since giving your dog a bath is a positive action (tho s/he might not think so!) and there is at least an indirect intent to kill or at least flush away those fleas, as part of the cleaning process. So, if we play the "sanctity of life" card, killing the fleas is an "evil" deed that springs from a positive action. Dark Phoenix destroying the star was never, as far as it was concerned, anything more than a deliberate, evil act. It was, effectively, showing off, drunk on power. The destruction of the Asparagus People springs directly from this act, evil begotten by evil.

Important to keep in mind, in the wake of all the back peddling and retconning Chris and others have tried to do, with varying degrees of succes, that Dark Phoenix was evil. It was not "confused", it was not "misunderstood", and it was most certainly not "corrupted" by Jean's humanity. Remember, Lilandra said the manifestation of Dark Phoenix was something she had been anticipating and dreading.

Sad thing is, if Shooter had not stuck his nose into it, if Chris and I had been allowed to do our story as originally plotted, drawn and scripted, there would be no debate today over whether or not Phoenix was evil. Jean Gray was possessed by a cosmic evil -- not a force of Nature, like Galactus --and that was the whole point of our story and what we saw as following it. If, some day, Jean was freed from the Phoenix, there would have been no question of it "reverting" to good, freed of her influence. Phoenix was bad.

The dog/bath analogy is, actually, better applied to Galactus. Altho his actions may appear evil to the "fleas", they are ultimately for the good of the whole Universe (the dog).

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Keith Thomas
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 7  

Then if the Phoenix is evil why wasn't Jean the Dark
Phoenix from the start? Or was she not fully possessed yet?
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Larry Morris
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 4:39pm | IP Logged | 8  

JB, the way you describe it you and Chris are on the same page.  You view it the Jean/Phoenix relationship the same way.  Things like PHOENIX THE UNTOLD STORY read differently. 

The discussion among the creators in that book.  You are adamant that Jean was possessed by an outside force therefore she can do what she did and not be culpable.  Chris doesn't see it as possession the way you do.  I'm guessing this discusson took place after you heard about Busiek's idea because you hint at a way to bring her back.  Chris is like "Huh".

Even the original stories read differently.  UXM 125 has Moira examining Jean and saying that Phoenix is her full genetic potential.  That the space shuttle incident pushed her to unleash that.

All I know is that post 1986 I've seen Claremont try to establish a number of times that Jean was Phoenix.  That it was her on the moon in UXM 137.  When he couldn't do it with her original body then he said her consciouness, psyche was there.  While you say that it was not her.  It was a copy of her. 
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Wayde Murray
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | 9  

Following the events of X-Men 137, it seemed to me that Claremont was trying to save Phoenix, while JB was trying to save Jean.

I can understand Chris being enamored of his own creation, but I prefer JB's loyalty to the original character.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | 10  

JB, the way you describe it you and Chris are on the same page. You view it the Jean/Phoenix relationship the same way. Things like PHOENIX THE UNTOLD STORY read differently.

The discussion among the creators in that book. You are adamant that Jean was possessed by an outside force therefore she can do what she did and not be culpable. Chris doesn't see it as possession the way you do. I'm guessing this discusson took place after you heard about Busiek's idea because you hint at a way to bring her back. Chris is like "Huh".

••

You guess wrong.

Dark Phoenix -- tho not by that name -- started with complaints (and I was among those complaining) that Chris was trying to turn UNCANNY X-MEN into PHOENIX AND THE X-MEN. He wanted her to do more and more, I wanted her to do less and less. I didn't want the main characters becoming fifth wheels in their own book.

A "solution" was offered by Steven Grant. "Make her a villain." From that moment it became obvious that the way to get there was that the Phoenix Entity was something evil that was being held in check by Jean's human spirit -- until that human spirit was corrupted by Mastermind.

The interview given about THE UNTOLD TALE reflects Chris' disgruntlement over the Galactus storyline I had done in which the heroes band together to save Galactus. "If Phoenix had to die, why doesn't Galactus have to die?" he demanded. Patiently -- and many times -- we explained to him that Galactus was not evil. Phoenix was.

So Chris started "rebuilding" Phoenix, sowing the seeds that would set up Jean's human spirit being itself what corrupted the Phoenix Entity, rather than -- as we originally planned -- containing it.

This required Chris ignoring a lot of what he himself had written (like Lilandra's line, mentioned upthread), but oddly, Chris has never seemed to have much of a problem ignoring what he has written.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 11  

Following the events of X-Men 137, it seemed to me that Claremont was
trying to save Phoenix, while JB was trying to save Jean.


••

Pretty much. And when I did hear about Busiek's idea, it seemed a
perfect solution, since, as near as I could tell, it made the original story,
in 137, even better. As originally told, it was Jean's human spirit,
struggling against the possessing Phoenix, that was finally able to
triumph and destroy the threat. In the retcon, the human spirit is so
powerful that even a copy is able to vanquish the Phoenix.

And we got Jean back. (Tho in the long result, she was better off dead!)
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 14 June 2009 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | 12  

Are they actually planning another X-Men film, or is this all hypothetical at this point?
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