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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132548
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 1
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...Getting the abilities of a spider as a result of being bitten by one -- radioactive or genetically engineered* -- is about as far from "reality" as one can get......* A change the movie made that actually worked... ++ And that change wasn't the filmmaker's original idea, either. They took it from "Ultimate Spider-Man," which was first published about a couple of years before the film was released. •• It's something I discussed briefly with Ralph Macchio, my editor on the project, when I was doing CHAPTER ONE. Ralph decided it was too far from Stan and Steve's version, and at heart I agreed.
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Lars Johansson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6113
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 9:30am | IP Logged | 2
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But I never liked one of the arguments against it, the one that said that the web would have to come out of his butt if they were organic.
That was very likely invented by JB in a response to me liking the organic web shooters here on the forum, I'm sure it's possible to find it.
Newsflash, Sam! The movie is not called "The Amazing Raimi".
Compared to the guy who directed the disaster FF The Silver surfer, where I literally needed a vomit bag, he is the amazing Raimi in my opinion.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 9:45am | IP Logged | 3
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But I never liked one of the arguments against it, the one that said that the web would have to come out of his butt if they were organic.++ That was very likely invented by JB in a response to me liking the organic web shooters… •• Sorry to shift you out of your position as center of the universe, Lars, but it was not me who placed a spider's webspinners in its rear. It was Nature. ==== Newsflash, Sam! The movie is not called "The Amazing Raimi". ++ Compared to the guy who directed the disaster FF The Silver surfer, where I literally needed a vomit bag, he is the amazing Raimi in my opinion. •• You must point out to me the parts of the FF movie that were changed from the source in order to make them appropriate to the director's personal autobiography.
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Rob Drew
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 June 2009
Posts: 87
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 4
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Stan and Steve probably got it right, but then considering how this stuff was cranked out, it doesn't surprise me that little thought was given to character or plot inconsistencies. Stuff happens so that other stuff can happen. I believe Stan has stated in interviews that Spider-man was meant to be a regular guy that has the mantle of hero thrust upon him in a fateful accident. With that in mind, why make him a scientific genius? It's gilding the lily, and it only gets used as a crutch by writers on the occasion it's necessary. Why waste time selling pictures to JJJ for pocket change when he could be a rich inventor (or seamstress)? In this regard I prefer the films approach to the character, he's a student, not a scientist.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 5
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Not to be too anal (forgive the pun), but silk doesn't come out of the spider's butt, per se. It comes out of a gland just below it --
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 6
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Rob wrote:
| Why waste time selling pictures to JJJ for pocket change when he could
be a rich inventor (or seamstress)? |
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Well, there was the whole being Spider-Man thing.
QUOTE:
| In this regard I prefer the films
approach to the character, he's a student, not a scientist. |
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Can't one be both a student and a scientist? He was a student in the comics, too, you know.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14825
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 7
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QUOTE:
| I believe Stan has stated in interviews that Spider-man was meant to be
a regular guy that has the mantle of hero thrust upon him in a fateful
accident. |
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Do you have a source for that?
QUOTE:
| With that in mind, why make him a scientific genius? It's
gilding the lily, and it only gets used as a crutch by writers on the
occasion it's necessary. |
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Heartily disagree. Science is one of the prevailing themes of Spider-Man. A big portion of Spider-Man's iconic rogue gallery are freaks of science, and Spider-Man often uses his knowledge of science to defeat them. All of the recent adaptations seem to be aware this, from the use of "Neogenics" as the basis of Spider-Man's rogues in the 90s Fox Animated series to the use of Oscorp-enchanced villains in the current Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon to choice of science-gone-wrong villains Green Goblin, Doc Ock, and Sandman in the movies.
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Lars Johansson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 June 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6113
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 8
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Sorry to shift you out of your position as center of the universe, Lars, but it was not me who placed a spider's webspinners in its rear. It was Nature.
I want to thank you again for your very long post at the time.
You must point out to me the parts of the FF movie that were changed from the source in order to make them appropriate to the director's personal autobiography.
I'm sorry I don't understand the question. In Sam Raimi's biography I'm sure there are super-8 movies horror, comics he read etc and he learned from it, so at least I could watch a real super-hero movie that I don't see as a disaster, rather a piece of art with some parts not so good as some other parts. You don't like the organic web shooters, but I think(in my opinion) that you still talk about a piece of art.
(Last part removed, since it was OT)
Edited by Lars Johansson on 06 August 2009 at 10:20am
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3031
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 10:28am | IP Logged | 9
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I like the Green Lantern web stuff. Spider-Man made his first web parachute in Amazing Spider-Man #1. The next time he does those kind of tricks is while fighting Doctor Doom in #5. In #8 there's a page where Spider-Man fights the Human Torch, and it's ridiculous, Spider-Man spins a goddman bat marionette.
I like how the relative sophistication of early Marvel comics sometimes didn't extend from the characterizations to the science. Web shapes stretch credibillty, but when you put Spider-Man next to the Human Torch, they're not much sillier than free-standing prison bars made out of flame.
A Spider-Man who secretes webbing doesn't seem so horrible, when one has the luxery of assuming it's going to come out just like the mechanical web-shooters. But I doubt that's how Steve Ditko would have drawn Spider-Man secreting webbing. I like to think Ditko would have given his younger readers nightmares by showing Spidey vomit the webs out of his mouth or something more appropriate for the Golden Age Spider-Man published by Timely, not the sleek, hip Sixties Marvel personified by the Spider-Man we know and love.
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Wayde Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 October 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 3115
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 11:30am | IP Logged | 10
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Rob wrote:
There's no reason for Peter Parker to be a scientific genius other than the fact that every early Marvel hero was, and this was a hold over from the Atlas monster stories. Peter Parker is special because he was bitten by a radioactive spider, Tony Stark is special because he's smart enough to build a suit of super armour. If everybody is a scientific genius, then there's nothing special about it, and just because it was part of a character's early history doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed.
So if either Reed Richards (as a teenager) or Ben Grimm (as a teenager) were bitten by a radioactive spider, do you believe they'd still become essentially the same character that Peter Parker became when he was bitten as a teenager? Of the two (Reed and Ben) whom do you see as being closer in essence to Peter? Which would be the shy introvert who might come into his own when hidden behind a mask?
Peter Parker's genius is one of his defining characteristics, and always was. It was the reason he was an outcast before he was bitten, and it was what saved his bacon on those occassions when being strong or fast or agile just wasn't enough to win the fight. As has been noted upthread, the movies should have done more to SHOW us he was a genius. Have him invent the webshooters in the first movie to complement his new abilities, and invent the spider tracers in the second movie to better utilise them. Have Octopus destroy a tracer once he's been tracked down through its use to illicite a "do you know what those things cost" comment, a comment that Octopus would take as an atempt at humor but that the viewer would know was heartfelt because Peter had to choose to invest in the necessary components over funding a date with MJ or a gift for Aunt May.
Sort of like they used to do in the comics.
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Steven Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5635
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 11
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The problem I have with the genetically altered spider is that it isn't an accident. In the original origin, nobody meant to irradiate the spider, and no one except Peter knows he was even bitten. In other origins, like Ultimate, everyone knows Peter was bitten...
I think in Chapter One, everyone knows of the accident, but nobody knows of the spider.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14825
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| Posted: 06 August 2009 at 11:46am | IP Logged | 12
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The problem I have with the genetically altered spider is that it
isn't an accident. In the original origin, nobody meant to irradiate
the spider, and no one except Peter knows he was even bitten. In other
origins, like Ultimate, everyone knows Peter was bitten... --- No one, in any of the versions of the origin, expects a spider bite to alter Peter.
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Topic Closed)
