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Topic: Sunday Crunch - 05.02.10 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Steven Huie
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Joined: 14 June 2004
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 12:16am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I like that the main characters have such rich blacks in them and the rest have a lighter tone. It definitely pops the characters, making your eyes have fun going around the page and our heroes be the focus just by simply using very clean, very black lines and shapes. Subtle and smart. 

Well, if you didn't intend that, then there was an unintended bonus point. :0)

...at least for my eyes.




Edited by Steven Huie on 03 May 2010 at 12:20am
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Hunter McFalls
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Joined: 08 January 2007
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 2:01am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Clearly Genius at work here
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 4:00am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Somehow, this cries out for a sequel, with the Sentinel coming to life, seizing them all.

••

You've been reading too many Claremont stories! I like the characters to have a clean win, occasionally!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 4:03am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I like that the main characters have such rich blacks in them and the rest have a lighter tone. It definitely pops the characters, making your eyes have fun going around the page and our heroes be the focus just by simply using very clean, very black lines and shapes. Subtle and smart.

Well, if you didn't intend that, then there was an unintended bonus point. :0)

••

Not so much "intent", perhaps, as instinct, honed by mumbly-mumble years on the job!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 4:44am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Morning Musings -- Looking at this piece, I find myself thinking, really for the first time, about something that has been lost in the X-Men and most team books.

First, a distinction. There are team books, and there are group books. People tend to use the words interchangeably, or with their meanings exchanged, but as I use them here (and as I generally use them) a team is something that starts out that way -- the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, the Challengers of the Unknown, etc -- while a group is several characters who have established their own credentials before coming together -- the JLA, the Avengers, the Defenders, etc.

Traditionally, in superhero comics, it has been easy to spot the teams, as distinct from the groups, by the uniforms. Literally, the characters wear the same (or variations on the same) outfits. The X-Men, in fact, may be the first to have broken this mold, when they got their "graduation" costumes (no longer uniforms) and each took on a distinctive look. (It's important to note, mind you, that this was a SALES PLOY. The title was floundering, and Marvel wanted to do something to call attention to it. Individualizing the characters, even to the point of putting their names, one by one, on the cover as logos, was the chosen route. And not a particularly successful one.)

This is a concept that has been all but abandoned in the past few decades. The All New, All Different X-Men were as different from each other as they were from the previous team. There were no unifying elements, as there were none in the relaunched Doom Patrol that followed not long after. The result was subtle but profound. In the kinds of wallpaper shots that were increasingly becoming common, as lots and lots of costumed characters found themselves bunching together (in books like SECRET WARS and CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS) it was becoming harder and harder to pick out the characters who belonged to teams. The Fantastic Four still stood out via their uniforms (tho there had even been a short-lived effort to give the Human Torch his own "look"), but if all the Marvel characters who appeared in the books published around the same time as GIANT-SIZED X-MEN 1 had been gathered together, there would have been nothing at all to cue an unfamiliar reader to who the X-Men were in that gathering. Not even something as simple as Xs on their belt buckles.

In a curious way, I think this points to the unfortunate direction comics were already beginning to turn -- to the clubbishness that has come to dominate fandom. The notion that readers are assumed to ALREADY KNOW what is needed to be known. So, OF COURSE the X-Men could be picked out of a clutch of costumed characters. After all, EVERYBODY KNOWS who the X-Men are, right?

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 6:50am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I had been a huge fan of the original X-Men, so I was a tough-sell on the new team. But I loved Cockrum's art and I loved the character of Cyclops, so I went along for the ride. I got rewarded with JB's run!

Something I noticed, though, while JB was on the book is that Cyclops would either say aloud or think to himself that this new team just was not meshing and perhaps could never cohere as well as the old team. As a reader, part of me was thinking, well, this observation is a set-up for that cohesion to eventually arrive -- but then another part of me (the bigger part, the fan of the OLD team part!) couldn't help but agree in fact with Cyclops that this new "team" wasn't anything of the sort. When Beast and Angel came into the storyline, I felt great relief, particularly in the Dark Phoenix issues, because I kept thinking, well, here are people, X-Men, team members who grew up with and truly love Jean. Compared to what Hank McCoy felt for her, who cares about Nightcrawler?!

Anyway, the only moment when I thought the new X-Men might truly come together was when Kitty was introduced. The way the members of the group rallied around her, that felt like a team at least starting to come together.

Ah, but then JB left the comicbook and everything went blah! (IMO).
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 7:09am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Something I noticed, though, while JB was on the book is that Cyclops would either say aloud or think to himself that this new team just was not meshing and perhaps could never cohere as well as the old team. As a reader, part of me was thinking, well, this observation is a set-up for that cohesion to eventually arrive -- but then another part of me (the bigger part, the fan of the OLD team part!) couldn't help but agree in fact with Cyclops that this new "team" wasn't anything of the sort.

••

That was all Chris. He'd got it into his head, somewhere before I arrived on the book, that having the team struggling to "mesh" would play up their individual strengths, and also provide a bit of internal conflict. One of the things I did was to try to show how the team WAS learning to function AS a team -- only be be frustrated as Chris wrote it the other way no matter what I drew!!

This is one very large problem with the "Marvel Method" of plot-pencils-script. If the scripter decides to go off in a different direction from what was plotted, often the penciler doesn't know anything about it until the book sees print (especially if the penciler is on the other side of the continent!). Many was the time I would pick up the latest issue, and end up calling Chris to ask why some important moment we -- and, later on, / -- had worked out at the plotting stage, was not there in the script. "That was how I felt when I wrote it" was the most often heard reply.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 7:11am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

JB, did you and Chris Claremont discuss his writing more in line with your art? And if so, what did he say?
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Trevor Smith
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Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: Canada
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

On a side note JB, which do you think produces better
stories? A somewhat combative, adversarial creative
relationship (as it seems yours with Chris could be at
times), or one where all involved are consistently on the
same page?
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Oops! I added a paragraph to my original post, and seem to have answered the question Michael was asking as I did so!

As to Trevor's -- Sure, when the writer and artist are "bouncing off each other" it can create some terrific energy. Only real problem, as noted, is when the writer, who basically has it last, alters the original intent. There were many instances of this when Chris and I were on UNCANNY, and, to my mind at least, a lot of good scenes and character "bits" got lost as a result.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 03 May 2010 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"That was how I felt when I wrote it" was the most often heard reply.

****

Well, it was the 70s. Feelings, nothing more than... [head smack]

Thanks for the insight, JB!
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William McMahon
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Joined: 24 March 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 224
Posted: 03 May 2010 at 8:51am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"There were many instances of this when Chris and I were on UNCANNY, and, to my mind at least, a lot of good scenes and character "bits" got lost as a result"

I remember these issues and thinking at the time that Chris was fighting to bring some kind of "adult" reasoning to the action, but to me I did stop reading his thought balloons and some of the captions because they just really slowed the book down.
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