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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 26 June 2010 at 4:59am | IP Logged | 1  

Super heroes have been reduced to pornstars with super powers. it's quite a logical next step for non-specialists to declare they run and fly around in their underwear.

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This part of the shift we've seen in the kind of people producing the comics, and the audience they are targeting.

When I was a kid, eight, nine, ten years old, even into my early teens, I had no problem at all with the conventions of the form. I did not think the characters wore their underwear on the outside, I did not think Superman had blue hair, I did not think there was anything inappropriate in the relationship between Batman and Robin. Nor did the stories I read ever contain snide asides to the audience, as the writers expressed their contempt for the characters and the concepts, and invited their readers to do likewise.

It seems that as the fan base has grown older (mostly by attrition), and the "professionals" working on the books has been drawn more and more from that shrinking pool, the OVERTHINKING has begun to dominate -- and with overthinking comes, it seems, derision.

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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 26 June 2010 at 5:03am | IP Logged | 2  

This sort of thing doesn't help:

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Not an entirely fair call. Homer is, after all, supposed to be an idiot. When the Simpsons crew does "real" superheroes, the costumes are played straight (or as straight as the show allows)!

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Michael Andrew Gonoude
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Posted: 26 June 2010 at 7:07am | IP Logged | 3  

To be accurate, historically, the term "long underwear character" originated within the industry, among the professionals themselves; one of our longest-surviving industry veterans (national treasures, all!), Joe Simon, makes use of the term in his book, The Comic Book MakersStan Lee, a longtime industry insider, can certainly be forgiven for letting the reference slip into one of his stories, considering the volume of work he was producing - and editing - at that time. 
Its origin was basically as an affectionate term to be used by pros with other pros -- how the term "escaped" into the civilian population is unknown, but it was probably leaked by an unthinking pro interviewed back when somebody first started writing articles about the business for other, "serious" media.
And, to be fair, JB, that iconic image of Clark Kent ripping open his suit and shirt to reveal the blue shirt with the red-and-yellow "S" does tend to subconsciously reinforce the "underwear" concept; after all, if you or I ripped open our "civvies", we'd be revealed in our underwear (and I stopped wearing my Superman T-shirt under my work clothes only recently!) - well, at least I would.  I hope those "Byrne-goes-commando" stories I've heard were just the latest generation of "Bad Byrne stories"...


Edited by Michael Andrew Gonoude on 26 June 2010 at 7:09am
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 26 June 2010 at 7:19am | IP Logged | 4  

Where, why and how terms originate has very little to do with what they ultimately end up meaning. Consider "the N-word". It traces its origin to the Latin word for black, and ended up with its present pronunciation after being filtered for a few decades thru a "Southern" accent. It was not even a term of derision, as originally used, merely descriptive. But time and circumstance has changed everything, and calling someone by that term would not be softened at all if the history and origin were added by way of explanation. (Remember, too, that the comicbook in which Spider-Man first appeared had been called AMAZING ADULT FANTASY just one issue earlier. Put a book with that title on the stands today, and what would most potential buyers expect?)

Most terms of derision have fairly innocent origins. Words have no intrinsic power of their own, after all. It all comes down to how they're used, and when a reporter refers to a superhero wearing his or her "underwear", you can be reasonably sure there is no love in the term.

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Dave Pruitt
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Posted: 26 June 2010 at 7:58am | IP Logged | 5  

Instead of declining comment, you should have taken this opportunity to educate an ignorant reporter, or if you really believe it wasn't ignorance but contempt, maybe taken the opportunity to scold. At least send him a link to this thread so you can open his eyes a little.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 June 2010 at 8:08am | IP Logged | 6  

Instead of declining comment, you should have taken this opportunity to educate an ignorant reporter, or if you really believe it wasn't ignorance but contempt, maybe taken the opportunity to scold.

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With no control over the content of the article, what would be the point? When you've given as many interviews as I have, you may have a better understanding of what happens -- that what gets into print is only that which supports the reporter's story.

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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 26 June 2010 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 7  

JB:  "(Remember, too, that the comicbook in which Spider-Man first appeared had been called AMAZING ADULT FANTASY just one issue earlier. Put a book with that title on the stands today, and what would most potential buyers expect?)"

Yeah, I was re-reading the Amazing Adult Fantasy Omnibus the other day and I got a dirty look from my wife until I explained the series to her and showed her some of the contents.

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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 26 June 2010 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 8  

 John Byrne wrote:
...When you've given as many interviews as I have, you may have a better understanding of what happens -- that what gets into print is only that which supports the reporter's story...


A friend of mine who has a massive toy collection, most of it centering on Star Wars related toys, was written up as the subject of an article right at the time of the release of the special editions in the late 1990's. His wife was pregnant with their first child at the time, and the reporter asked if the couple planned to name the baby after a Star Wars character. The wife assured him that they would not be doing that.

When the article was published, the writer wrote about the pregnancy and added something to the effect of "-- And no, they don't plan on naming their child Han or Leia." Basically, the writer had obviously determined he was going to make some remark about naming a child after a Star Wars character regardless of what answer he received to his question about the baby's name.

Funny enough, the couple's second child was named after a Star Wars character a few years later: Mace.
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 26 June 2010 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 9  



The thing that tweaks me about this is that it's a question that shows attention to the precise, fanboyish detail of stars on a costume mixed with the ignorance of the underwear comment.  And ignorance is the kindest interpretation - I think it more likely the writer is trying to make a joke by sounding above the material.  A attempt to sound clever, but the clever gas tank is running on empty.  I don't mind bad jokes - I make them all the time and it doesn't stop me from the fun of joking around.  But I don't like humor from contempt or cruelty.  I just don't find it funny.



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kevin schlack
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Posted: 27 June 2010 at 3:45pm | IP Logged | 10  

lets get this strait, the only "changes" in comic book characters the reporter from the NY times could come up with is Wonder Woman's undies? Sorry to hear that, i see John Byrne inspired shots in almost every comic book movie i have see , and i just finished re reading Planet Krypton<hey NYT ever hear of Superman and his big 50th birthday bash?>  
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Flavio Sapha
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Posted: 27 June 2010 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | 11  

When I got into comics, as a kid, the costumes were the coolest part of it.
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Brian Joseph Mayer
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Posted: 27 June 2010 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 12  

":Considering that we're talking about a journalist who is more than likely neither four or nine, I think that we can exclude your analogy.  I'm quite sure no one here is slamming kids for not understanding the correct terminology. 

As a journalist, however, it's their job to know the subject they are writing about is it not?  To at least be familiar enough with the subject to write about it accurately?  I certainly hope that we hold journalists to a higher standard of research than we would, say, anyone off the street or your own children. 

It seems as though you like to pop in and declare people "wrong" in a ton of threads.  Don't know if that's your nature or if you really do disagree with people more often than you agree with them.  In any case, can you at least see that decades of derisive behavior and attitudes from people who don't read the form against those that do might somehow influence a perception that calling something worn on the outside of your clothing "underwear" is at the very least demeaning if not down right contemptuous?"

Sorry, your argument isn't convincing. The first question to consider is that of intent. For instance, do you think the journalist intended to mock, demean, or hold the subject in contempt when asking about Wonder Woman's underwear?  You are correct, it is their job to research a subject before writing about it. But, isn't that what the journalist was doing? Emailing JB was still part of the "before writing" stage, wasn't it?  

It is only contempt if they know the correct terminology and then refuse to use it. Otherwisewe are the ones choosing to feel contempt when there really isn't any there.

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