In order to go back to JB's it is a pity there is not some way for Gay couples to adopt Gay children.

I would like to ask to all the fellow gay members :
1) How old were you when you were sure to be gay ?
2) at the age of, let's say 11-13, do you think you would have been strong enough to say to a stranger (someone in charge) that you were gay, and that you wanted a gay familly ?

Thank-you.

Mike Benson said: "How about you just take my word for it?  I've ALWAYS been gay.  See how easy that was?"

No need to be snarky, Mike. I'm just asking out of personal interest. While I'm sure that genetic predisposition is a large part of homosexual determinacy, I'm not aware of any clear evidence that it is ALL. The word "entirely" was intentional and important to my earlier post.

Now, aside from that: Can you really say that you have always been gay? I'm not sure that I can say with certainty that I have always been heterosexual. Or that I have always been sexual at all. For example, when I was 4 years old.

(Lest my posts here be misunderstood -- please understand that I am not arguing with anyone, nor defending any position. I am merely asking for information and opinions. Got to be careful...)

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Human behavior lies on a spectrum. Why would sexual orientation be different?

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Girls were icky until 5th or 6th grade, but I remember crushing pretty hard on Valerie Bertinelli, Erin Gray, and Lynda Carter when I was 5.

Michael Roberts said: "Human behavior lies on a spectrum. Why would sexual orientation be different?"

Right, but that's my question -- can a person be 50-50% bisexual genetically? Can you be 75%-hetero / 25%-homo, genetically?  Or, is the theory that you are either 100% hetero or 100% homo, and that any evidence of bisexuality is merely a socially 'learned' thing?

To me, this sort of works against the likelihood of total genetic determinacy.

Michael Roberts said: "Girls were icky until 5th or 6th grade, but I remember crushing pretty hard on Valerie Bertinelli, Erin Gray, and Lynda Carter when I was 5."

Heh heh. I must be a bit younger. At that age, I was into Lisa Bonet and The Bangles.

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Girls were icky until 5th or 6th grade, but I remember crushing pretty hard on Valerie Bertinelli, Erin Gray, and Lynda Carter when I was 5.

••

That we are not sexually AWARE from an early age in no way demonstrates that we are not already sexually ORIENTED. There is a genetic disposition toward alcoholism, but I would not expect to see it clearly manifest in toddlers.

"As for this discussion, I must say I am more than a bit disappointed by Knut. I usually find his posts interesting, well thought out and informative. He often goes to great lengths to express an opinion that needs a lot of courage and a well structured way of thinking and expression.
Unfortunately, his contribution to this discussion was to bring the point of view of an undetermined group he labels as "deeply christian" people, color it as he saw fit and then attack it."

I'm sorry, but when the discussion turns to the issue of gay adoption, religion does come into it. But if the issue is that the group is vaguley defined, fine.

Christian Democrats in my country (one of 10 major parties) tirelessly oppose rights for gays. One of only two political parties to do so (most conservatives are okay with most of it) . They are not shy about publicly denouncing homosexuality as "sinful and depraved"  when talking about its legality or on homosexual marriages.

Then on the issue of gay adoption, they use the argument that the children of homosexuals will be teased and buillied. And therefore gays should not be allowed to adopt. This party is very big on being against bullying in school.

Yet they fail to see the connection between their strong and loaded invective against homosexuals, even in front of their children, in church or in religious studioes in school (we still have those) and the hateful words spoken about gay people in the schoolyard.

I remember as a child ,growing up in the West Country (classified as our bible belt, although our city had its share of godless atheists as well) and hearing all sorts of stories in the playground about what a pervert the baker who had a store next to the primary school was.

That baker was gay, not flamboyantly, but people "knew", and it all got gradually worse, where these "rumors" caused people to stop buying bread at his bakery because he was gay (my dad could be a bit homophobic himself, but when he heard about the boycot, because it was an actual boycot, he insisted we always buy bread there) and then one day the baker hung himself.

Now imagine any kid with gay parents growing up in that environment. Of the people I have heard of coming out as gay in my town (and there are very few), I think the youngest was in his mid twenties before he had the courage.  I have a second cousin in his 60s who is supposed to be gay, but that's so hush hush that no-one discusses it.

And a lot of that has to do with the position of religion in our society, and that people who identify themselves as deeply Christian don't see the connection between them saying hateful things about gays and the children of gays being bullied.

Yes, I could strip out their supposed motivation(religion) for saying hateful things about gay people, but why should I have to? I have not said that "All christians hate gays"  (we are talking about christians as a group, not the religious doctrine). I am saying that some are very anti-gay and that's connected with the children of gays being bullied.

At least in my opinion.