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Tim Farnsworth
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 July 2010
Posts: 817
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| Posted: 23 July 2010 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 1
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I don't know if you're being facetious, Andy, but Dr. Manhattan's increasingly godlike power and resultant disinterest in humans around him led him to abandon social norms. He became cold, distant, more fascinated with the cosmology of other worlds than the people he knew. Foregoing clothes was just a visual aspect of his detachment from the world as we live it. Put simply: one of the main reasons we wear clothes is for other people - to impress them, seduce them, or avoid making them uncomfortable around nakedness - and Doctor Manhattan has forgotten what it's like to care about people at all.
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Josh Goldberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2065
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| Posted: 23 July 2010 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 2
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I never read "Watchmen" when it was first published. A few years ago, a very good friend of mine loaned me his TPB with his highest recommendations that I read it. It was only because of the esteem in which I hold this friend that I forced myself to read the TPB all the way through. And, believe me, I did have to force myself.
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Michael Arndt
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Joined: 26 April 2004
Posts: 8556
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| Posted: 23 July 2010 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | 3
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I didn't read this until a couple of years ago. I struggled through it. As with Josh, it was recommended by a friend. It was a tough read.
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Greg McPhee
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Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5065
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| Posted: 23 July 2010 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | 4
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Out of curiosity, Andy, if Watchmen 'puts you to sleep (sic)', can you name an example of a comic or series you find especially well written (either past or presnt)? =================================================== Too many to mention......
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Michael Wolner Jr
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Joined: 19 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 246
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| Posted: 23 July 2010 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | 5
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I read the trade quite a few years ago myself. That has been the one and only time I read Watchmen. I found it...forgettable.
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Monte Gruhlke
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Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3303
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| Posted: 23 July 2010 at 8:31pm | IP Logged | 6
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I never took it that Moore (not being able to use the Charleton characters like he wanted) wanted to capture the atmosphere of those characters in his new variations. He just took the existing characters and tweaked them into something off on a deep tangent. It doesn't go any deeper than that.
Moore has done some interesting things in the past, but he has gone out of his way to bastardize and use existing character/creations from other stories. League and Watchmen are his premier works, and the characters are blatantly ripped off from other sources and tweaked just enough in some cases to be a little different.
I see no need for any more Watchmen material - the series (and even the movie) introduced the origins and conclusions of the characters, asking and answering most of the questions - more material would add nothing to the franchise. There are no burning need to know story elements left open... IMHO
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Robert Walsh
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Joined: 24 July 2008
Posts: 456
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| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 3:17am | IP Logged | 7
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One of the things that's curious about the Watchmen back story is that there's really not a whole lot the heroes did. There were a handful of villains, but they didn't amount to much and they all put in a bit of time dealing with street crime; but the general impression left by Watchmen was that they had done this for a few years, they really weren't needed, and after a fairly uneventful career they hung up the tights. Certainly nothing as dramatic as the events of Watchmen had ever happened to them. Given this wholly undramatic backdrop, where do you go to make an interesting prequel?
Only dangling plot element that I think could make an interesting story is the disappearance of Hooded Justice, which could be used to explore the realities and hypocrisies of the Post-War Era. But the biggest hurdle in doing a story like that is that everyone is always reminded of Chinatown. L.A. Confidential is one of the best reviewed movies I'd ever seen and just about every review comments that it's trying a bit too hard to be Chinatown.
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Robert Walsh
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Joined: 24 July 2008
Posts: 456
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| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 3:39am | IP Logged | 8
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Not being familiar with the Charleton characters, I had thought Superman & Batman.
Ozymandias, Rorschach, and Nite-Owl all strike me as Batman derivatives (although I guess they're Batman derivatives once removed), with Ozy being the millionaire playboy aspect, Rorschach being the justice driven aspect, and Nite Owl being the gadgets aspect. While Manhattan seemed to be the government propaganda version of "Truth, Justice, and The American Way".
What I find interesting about Watchmen is that it works pretty well even with a limited knowledge of the super-hero genre. Most people know the basic tropes because they share a great many of them with the Bond movies (such as the Talking Villain). Each hero has a different motivation for putting on the costume. The original Nite Owl does it for adventure, the second does it out of hero worship. The original Silk Spectre does it for fame, the second out of family obligation. The Comedian is a sadist and does it so he can hurt people. Manhattan does it because that's what he's supposed to do. All of which have parallels with why people become police officers, join the military, get into politics, etc.
It asks why do our heroes do what they do and the answer isn't a simplistic "because it's the right thing to do", because that's not the answer in the real world. All of which culminates in the finale which asks the very difficult question of "does the end justify the means", which in the real world tends to be a bit more complicated. Dark Knight Returns brings up the FDR Pearl Harbor story (then immediately wusses out by saying "it's too big"). Churchill let his own men die to protect the secret that the Allies had broken the Enigma Code. If the stakes are high enough, good people are sometimes willing to let much smaller atrocities slide for the better good.
At the end of Watchmen, the characters are put into a moral dilemma in which exposing a monsterous crime could put the entire world in jeopardy and a choice is made to cover it up and hope something good comes out of it. The only comeuppance Ozy gets is the uncertainty about whether it works out or not, which the final panel reinforces this. Does Rorschach's journal get printed, possibly exposing Ozy's crime and destorying the peace, does it get printed and gets dismissed as a hoax, or does it get tossed out.
I can see why this story gets taught in universities, because, like a lot of literature, it asks difficult questions instead of giving easy answers.
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Michael Edwards
Byrne Robotics Member
Wish Granted
Joined: 21 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 295
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| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 9
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Watchmen was nothing more than mind numbing garbage. I couldn't even get through the book because it was so boring and slow.
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Luke Styer
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Joined: 20 April 2004
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| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 8:38am | IP Logged | 10
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Robert Walsh wrote:
| It asks why do our heroes do what they do and the answer isn't a simplistic "because it's the right thing to do", because that's not the answer in the real world. |
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I think that to say "because it's the right thing to do" is never the answer in the real world is just as simplistic as to say that it is always the answer.
QUOTE:
| I can see why this story gets taught in universities, because, like a lot of literature, it asks difficult questions instead of giving easy answers. |
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I don't know. "The heroes all do what they do because they're neurotic" strikes me as a pretty easy answer.
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Joe Smith
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Joined: 29 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6599
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| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | 11
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I, too, would only buy if Gibbons draws.
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Robert Walsh
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Joined: 24 July 2008
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| Posted: 24 July 2010 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 12
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think that to say "because it's the right thing to do" is never the answer in the real world is just as simplistic as to say that it is always the answer.
I don't know. "The heroes all do what they do because they're neurotic" strikes me as a pretty easy answer.
* * * * * * *
Except that didn't describe the original motivation of either Nite Owl. Dan admittedly was in the middle of a mid-life crisis at the start of Watchmen, but he quickly shed that neurosis during the course of the story. I'd also rank both Nite Owl's as pretty damn close to the "because it's the right thing to do", as neither entered into the super-hero game for a selfish reason. And let's remember, Nite Owl II didn't waver in going after Ozy, even though he knew he was completely out-classed, because it WAS the right thing to do. Only after he was faced with an impossible choice (bring a killer to justice and risk nuclear annihilation or let a killer walk free in the hopes that it would be averted) did he waver.
Neither Nite Owl had their parents murdered in front of them or been complicit in the death of their legal guardian, their motives are a good bit closer "because it's the right thing" than two of the most famous super-heroes of all time. No thirst for personal justice or guilt in their make-up... just youthful enthusiasm and idealism and a thirst for adventure. So... would that make them more or less heroic than Batman and Spider-Man?
There's plenty of examples of behavior in Watchmen, some good and some bad. Dan and Laurie are both portrayed as thoroughly decent people throughout the story, who are willing to put their lives on the line for what they think is right. Maybe they're a little neurotic, but who among us isn't?
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