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Gene Best
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Joined: 24 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4598
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 1
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I couldn't decide if ASM #289 was terrible or brilliant. I felt entirely let down by the reveal and how it was handled. I haven't read the book since I purchased it off the stands, but it felt forced and almost matter-of-fact as opposed to the big splash panel at the end of a book I'd expect such an event to have.
At the same time, I wondered if The Hobgoblin payoff couldn't possibly be as satisfying as the build-up ... so Peter David over-compensated with an almost casual payoff.
I'd think it'd be fascinating to be a writer in that respect - you try to come up with an arc that will take the comic book community by storm, and when you finally DO so, it becomes SO big that you worry that your finale might not live up to the journey on which you've taken the readers.
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JT Molloy
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Joined: 19 February 2008
Posts: 2092
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 2
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"The Green Goblin seeking to rule the underworld was much more interesting to me than Norman Osborn´s seasonal insanity bout vendetta against Peter Parker."
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YES!! Something Spectacular Spider-Man (cartoon) nailed dead on.
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Pedro Bouça
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 1465
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | 3
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"Is it true that Ditko wanted the Green Goblin to be a completely unknown person?"
I think I read somewhare that Stan Lee had complained that they had already done that trick with the Crime-Master (remember him?). And since Norman Osborn had already been established as a rat bastard on the previous Mendel Stromm story, he became the obvious choice for the Green Goblin.
I have to agree with Stan Lee on that one.
It is said that it was the reason why Ditko left Marvel, although only he could confirm or deny that.
Edited by Pedro Bouça on 23 October 2010 at 1:45pm
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Joe Hollon
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Joined: 08 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13678
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 4
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The mystery of the Hobgoblin's identity and the whole Hobgoblin saga is a highlight of the entire history of the Spider-Man character. If you haven't read Roger Stern's HOBGOBLIN LIVES mini series you must. He was able to conclude the Hobgoblin story in a very satisfactory way and tie up a bunch of loose ends.
My opinion about the original Green Goblin: Norman never should've died. I love the routine they had established in only a handful of stories (go back and count, there aren't many stories with Norman as the Green Goblin prior to his death in ASM 122). Norman is the father of Peter's best friend. When he transforms into the Goblin he knows Peter's identity. So Spider-Man must defeat him while trying to keep his own identity safe and trying to prevent the public from finding out the Green Goblin is Harry's father. When he reverts to Norman, he does not remember anything about being the Goblin. This could've gone on for decades!
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Brian Miller
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Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 30913
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 5
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Gene Best wrote:
| I couldn't decide if ASM #289 was terrible or brilliant. I felt entirely let down by the reveal and how it was handled. I haven't read the book since I purchased it off the stands, but it felt forced and almost matter-of-fact as opposed to the big splash panel at the end of a book I'd expect such an event to have. |
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The thing of it is, he was revealed to be Hobgoblin in this issue, but he was killed previously in the SPIDER-MAN/ WOLVERINE One-Shot. So, he was posthumously outed as the Hobgoblin. Which makes no sense to me from a story perspective. " Hey, let's reveal who the Hobgoblin is!" "Ok! Let's make him someone we just killed in another book so we can't use either character anymore!"
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Vinny Valenti
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Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8051
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 6
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Hah! I was just about to post that, Brian! PAD wrote about his side of the whole Hobgoblin mess here.
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Gene Best
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4598
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 7
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It's funny, Joe - Hobgoblin Lives was the only comic (TPB) I bought after leaving the hobby in 1990 - and it was because of what you you said ("The ... whole Hobgoblin saga is a highlight of the entire history of the Spider-Man character.")
The Hobgoblin saga felt like an unresolved story from my youth, and seeing that there might be a "real" ending compared to the one in ASM #289 made me reach for my wallet almost immediately.
I have to say, however, that the resolution was only pretty good. I definitely appreciated Stern's essay, but was still among the fans that probably went, "Roderick Who?" Maybe it had been too many years since I left, but I couldn't remember that character at all.
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Gene Best
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Joined: 24 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4598
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 8
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Vinny - thanks for the link. I can definitely relate to "Stunned fans demanded, “Why the hell did you do it this way?” ".
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Gene Best
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4598
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | 9
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How do you guys feel about, "…presumably Ned, unless so many readers nailed it that we felt we had to go in another direction"?
It seems disingenuous that depending on the guesses of fandom, the writers would call an audible about the answer to multi-year mystery. (In a way, it's backwards form of crowd-sourcing, isn't it?)
At what point should an author "know" the payoff of his story? Granted, stories can take on a life of their own, and end up a little differently than intended ... but to change the payoff based on fan guesses kinda seems like cheating.
At the same time, I suppose if the payoff WAS that obvious, the writers have an obligation to make the ending as satisfying as possible - which would be to zig if everyone saw the zag coming.
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Steven Myers
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Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5628
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 4:57pm | IP Logged | 10
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How did Norman Osborn become "Lex Luthor", when he was a regular guy half the time before he died?
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Dave Phelps
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4180
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 6:36pm | IP Logged | 11
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Brian Miller: "The thing of it is, he was revealed to be Hobgoblin in this issue, but he was killed previously in the SPIDER-MAN/ WOLVERINE One-Shot. So, he was posthumously outed as the Hobgoblin. Which makes no sense to me from a story perspective." Why not? After you remove the mystery angle, the main appeal of the character is going to be the gimmicks. By passing his toys over to a new character, you get a usable Hobgoblin for future stories and a unique ending to the mystery storyline. Makes sense to me.
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David Danion
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Joined: 15 January 2006
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| Posted: 23 October 2010 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 12
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Gene Best: At what point should an author "know" the payoff of his story? Granted, stories can take on a life of their own, and end up a little differently than intended ... but to change the payoff based on fan guesses kinda seems like cheating. That's exactly what happened with DC's Arrmaggeddo 2001. Too many people guessed that Monarch was going to be Capatin Atom, so they switched the reveal to make him Hawk instead.
Edited by David Danion on 23 October 2010 at 6:41pm
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