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Topic: The Avengers ~ SPOILERS Begin on Pg. 43 (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | 1  

Joss Whedon will have to pull off the greatest writing/directing job of his career, in order to properly juggle so many major and minor peripheral  Marvel characters in one film.  I have a sinking feeling that if there's going to be a major tipping point for the current comic book movie craze, it'll be THE AVENGERS, whether it's any good or not.  I can easily see the studios and producers pushing to make this The Biggest Thing in the History of Movies, which to me translates as CGI/Dolby/3-D overkill.

The public could very easily become burned-out after this one, just from sheer exhaustion!

 

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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 1:56pm | IP Logged | 2  

I disagree. It's a pretty straight-forward plot, easily handled. I think it'll do fine.
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Emery Calame
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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 2:50pm | IP Logged | 3  

" If Emery thinks Astonishing X-Men was Whedon's take on Identity Crisis I give up."

I didn't say that but I guess it makes a good beefy straw man. I think there were similarities between the two works and a similar appetite for ugliness as a means of achieving cheap short term intensity in the two stories though. 

Should I now approximate Thanos' counter-argument as a similar straw man that holds that Identity Crisis and Whedon's Astonishing X-men run are totally dissimilar in the context of discussion about concerns over what sort of pain and  misery Whedon's script for Avengers might contain and that Kitty on a space bullet somehow falls outside the scope of pain and misery by pasting a "heroic sacrifice" label over it?

" Because THIS is what we are talking about here.
JB and Claremont had Phoenix sacrifice herself on the moon in a rather standout story. Were they doing what Meltzer did in IC? "

We are talking about an avengers DEBUTmovie. Written by Joss Whedon. Joss Whedon has praised Meltzer and Identity Crisis. Brian hague mentioned this. You said that "he" had not done the pain and misery thing in his super hero work that Brian Hague was concerned about. I said that he had in fact ended his run on X-men with Kitty Pryde trapped on a a space bullet. You tried to drag it back to Meltzer's Identity Crisis when the topic was what Wheddon might do being a fan of Identity Crisis.

I did not say that Whedon's X-men run was his version of Identity Crisis. I did not say that it was the same as Identity crisis or that they represent the same level of "ick". What I did say was that he had done the 'pain and misery' ending before in his super hero stuff and that being a fan of identity crisis he might be willing to do it in his Avengers script too. 

Then you tried to bring up supposed differences in the 'shocking deaths' of Identity Crisis or Whedon's X-men run. Heroic sacrifice vs. pointless suffering supposedly, and even better, Kitty was still on the table? 

Well then I guess Sue Dibney was still on the table too because while she died, she came back as Topper. Or Captain Boomerang was still on the table because he got brought back by the Entity in Blackest Night. Spock was still on the table after the end of Wrath of Kahn too. Great.

I'm sure that kind of reassurance would keep a "heroic sacrifice" stuffed into an Avengers DEBUT movie from harshing the viewer's mellow. And misunderstanding of the Phoneix death and a desire to harness that "energy" is pretty much what got us X-men The Last Stand with a melting wolverine waiting for what was left of Jean to drop her shields so he could claw her after Professor X was "left in play" by "heroically sacrificing" himself and turning up in a comatose man across the world. It's what got us the Marvel Girl "heroically sacrificing" herself at Alkali Lake and "being left on the table" by a phoenix effect above the lake at the end of X2. Yippee.

And again, this is the FIRST Avenger's movie. A heroic sacrifice might not be a great idea for the audience meeting the Avengers together for the first time. Sure, it's that movie when Thor Iron man and Captain America and the Hulk all got together and somebody died because the thing needed some "heroic sacrifice" for people to enjoy seeing all those super heroes they liked in the same movie. 

" You are the one who is going to great lengths to avoid the obvious point."

Yeah, bullshit. 

You're just making a huge deal of Identity Crisis and focusing on THAT to make Whedon's X-men stuff look shinier and thus dismiss BrianHague's concern that Whedon might write a bummer of a debut Avenger's movie in order to make it seem more intense and real to those people who like pain and misery as long as it's wrapped up in a candy coating of heroic sacrifice. 

That doesn't mean that Whedon absolutely will do it. But I think, given his prior writing for super heroes, and professed admiration for Identity Crisis and Meltzer that Brian Hague's concerns about the first Avenger's movie are reasonable ones and your off hand dismissal of those concerns is decidedly not reasonable.


Edited by Emery Calame on 30 April 2011 at 2:58pm
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Al Cook
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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 3:09pm | IP Logged | 4  

"Joss Whedon will have to pull off the greatest writing/directing job of his career, in order to properly juggle so many major and minor peripheral  Marvel characters in one film"

Do you feel the same way about any comic book writer who takes on writing an issue of the Avengers comic?  Because if you don't, you sound kid of silly saying it about a movie.
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Thanos Kollias
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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | 5  

Well, you see, I have seen all of Angel, all of Buffy, read all of Astonishing X-Men and found no trace of Meltzer's IC in them. If it's heroic sacrifice, so be it. If it's murdering and brain-washing, I won't like it.
I really can't think two praised comics works further from each other than Astonishing X-Men and Identity Crisis in the past 10 years. I really can't. Why Whedon said what he said? I don't know. He has said that Buffy was based on Kitty Pryde. Me, I can't see it. But exaggeration is something Whedon does when he praises something he likes. Maybe that's where this thing comes from...
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William McCormick
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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | 6  

I fail to see how having Dr. Light rape Sue Dibney and the Atom's wife become a serial killer is even remotely the same as Kitty sacrificing herself to save the Earth.  Heroes do that all the time.  
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Al Cook
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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 7  

The fact that this is not the first time I have read the word 'rape' in description of what one comic book character has done to another makes my physically ill.

What the fuck has been done to this genre?!?!

All the successful movies in the world aren't going to save it from it's own sickening self.
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 30 April 2011 at 8:37pm | IP Logged | 8  

"Do you feel the same way about any comic book writer who takes on writing an issue of the Avengers comic?  Because if you don't, you sound kid of silly saying it about a movie."
 
If I'm understanding you correctly, Al, no, I don't feel the same way about comic book writers for any Avengers titles.  They have no obligation to re-introduce the characters with every issue... most times then can jump right into the action and rightfully assume the fans are already familiar enough with the characters.
 
An introductory film, featuring at least 4 iconic characters (each coming on the heels of their own separate franchises) together onscreen for the first time, will certainly have to be a delicate balancing act, to say the least.
 
My worry is more in regards to how much exposition needs to be carried over from the other films, for the benefit of the general public?  How much screen time do all four (Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, the Hulk) need to share?  What kind of character arc (if any) will be afforded, especially when you also need to throw in the Black Widow and Nick Fury, both played by big stars who will be demanding a fair share of said screen/face time?
 
On top of that, will THE AVENGERS also run the risk of becoming too top-heavy with a possible overabundance of cameos from the other films?  Aside from Loki, will Marvel Studios feel the need to add in cameos by Odin, War Machine, Jane Foster, Thunderbolt Ross, Betty Ross, Pepper Potts, Sharon Carter, Happy Hogan, JARVIS, Doc Samson, etc.?
 
Cramming all of these characters into one story is usually done without batting an eyelash by most comic writers/artists, and will read perfectly well on the page; we're used to seeing storylines like that all the time in Marvel (or DC) comics.  Juggling/writing a similar scenario in a big-budget feature film will almost certainly be a much bigger undertaking.  I honestly hope Whedon pulls off the film like gangbusters, but I'd hate to see it collapse under its own weight, which for now, certainly seems mammoth!
 
 
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Chris Geary
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Posted: 01 May 2011 at 1:18am | IP Logged | 9  

I don't think that the amount of characters is going to be a problem.  

The first thing that I saw of Joss Whedon's was Serenity.  I knew it was from a TV show, but had never seen it.  Only thing I'd seen was the trailer a couple of times.   

In the first two sequences we saw two main characters, a mini action sequence, the villain, the premise, the introduction of five more characters, a larger action sequence and another villain.  I didn't have any problem following what was going on and knowing a little bit about each character.  By the end of the film I knew that I wanted to see the film again and also find the series on DVD. 

I think that he's capable.

Also, unless someone is making a film that just features a handful of characters, you need more than just the main cast.  

It may well feature most of the characters that have been seen in the previous films, but they could only be in a scene or two.  In fact having them in the film would make it easier.  Instead of having an extra/new actress playing Tony Stark's PA, you have Pepper.  Instead of some random scientist you have Jane Foster, etc.  If they need a big scene where Nick Fury is giving them the run down, General Ross can be in the room, or on a screen from another location.  

Same can be true for villains.  In Bond there is the Bad Guy and one or two key henchmen.  Loki & Hammer,  Loki & Frost Giant, Loki & The Leader,  If the story line was to be something like Loki creates an army to invade the Earth to bring about Ragnarok, you could bring in the other Asgardians as the battle goes into full swing and it will work. 

As long as it's written well there won't be any problems.  If you introduce ten characters in the same scene, then that's a problem.  If you start off with two, then add one, then two more, etc, it can build naturally and not cause any confusion.
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Ivan Black
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Posted: 01 May 2011 at 3:16am | IP Logged | 10  

Tom Hiddleston talks about how many superheroes we'll see in the Avengers. Really? Then they have some surprises in store, unless I'm being blind...  http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/MarvelFreshman/news/? a=36285

I have faith in Whedon at least being able to handle ensembles. Even in the Firefly episodes, which were considerably shorter than feature film length, he always managed to give all the main characters their due, without it being forced or awkward (imo).

Marvel surely knows that their future depends a lot on the success of the Avengers in particular and that it has to be done right? Won't hold my breath, but here's hoping after seeing what they did with Thor.

Plus I think they need to power up the Hulk a little. Can't see Leterrier's Hulk stand any chance against Branagh's Thor. Hulk's been portrayed as too weak so far in my eyes. He should be able to level mountains and jump a lot further.


Edited by Ivan Black on 01 May 2011 at 3:32am
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Michael Andrew Gonoude
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Posted: 01 May 2011 at 10:57pm | IP Logged | 11  

In view of the death of Osama bin Laden, is now a good time to suggest restoring "of America" to the name of the Justice League movie?  GIMME A "HELL, YEAH!"
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Chris Geary
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Posted: 01 May 2011 at 11:37pm | IP Logged | 12  

Plus I think they need to power up the Hulk a little...

---------------------------

I got the impression from the last scene with Banner, in the Incredible Hulk, that he was in control of the changes, and he did seem to be making choices during his fight with the Abomination.

I don't know how that affects his strength though.  It could be that they say he is holding back and that he would need to let go in order to defeat whatever villain they're going up against.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 01 May 2011 at 11:37pm | IP Logged | 13  

Interesting to note that Chris Evans has said that Cap will be getting a
different uniform for the film. Let's hope it does a better job of
capturing what Captain America should look like.
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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 12:11am | IP Logged | 14  

My only problem with Whedon (and this come mostly from watching Firefly, Serenity and reading some Astonishing X-Men) is that so many of his characters speak with the same voice.

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Ivan Black
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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 4:46am | IP Logged | 15  

Marvel talks more Avengers:
Audio here:


Edited by Ivan Black on 02 May 2011 at 4:50am
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Ivan Black
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 5:53am | IP Logged | 16  

If Whedon runs into difficulties with the cgi, he should hire this guy as a stand-in for the Hulk. Heck, he even out-Hulks Ferrigno...

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Sam Houston
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 7:55am | IP Logged | 17  

Oops!  A script theft!

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/05/02/avengers-script-the ft-samuel-l-jackson/

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Brad Danson
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 18  

Ivan, who is that guy?  Seriously, there's no need to CGI a Hulk if there's someone that looks like that!
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Ivan Black
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 8:21am | IP Logged | 19  

I have no idea who he is. Just came across it randomly online. Looks like a bodyguard of some sort. Certainly looks like someone one wouldn't like if he got angry...

Edited by Ivan Black on 03 May 2011 at 8:23am
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 8:50am | IP Logged | 20  

Is that ex-Spice Girl Gerri Halliwell with the bodyguard type man?
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Ryan Maxwell
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 9:44am | IP Logged | 21  

That is indeed the lovely Geri.  And it looks like that pic was ever so slightly Photoshopped.

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Ivan Black
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 10:06am | IP Logged | 22  

Haha, I shoulda realised it was fake...
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Keith Thomas
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 11:19am | IP Logged | 23  

Guy still looks huge next to Halliwell, though she is only 5'2", maybe that's how they should do a Hulk movie surround him with a bunch of Tom Cruises and Mark Walbergs.
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 24  

He'd make a good Colossus...
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Ryan Maxwell
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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 25  

If he can't act, maybe Piledriver if they go with the Wrecking Crew or Masters of Evil.

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