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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 2:00pm | IP Logged | 1  

 Brian wrote:
...Seems like I've read Marvel started beating DC when DC stopped distributing the Marvel books and Marvel was free to publish as many books as they wanted. So, late 60's/ early 70's?...

Early 1970's matches the information as I've always known it.

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Derek S. Wilczynski
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 2:28pm | IP Logged | 2  

http://enterthestory.com/comic_sales.html

Interesting web site.  Don't know how much of it is true and how much is apocryphal, but it's interesting nonetheless.
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Brian Kirk
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | 3  

I was strictly a Marvel guy until Marv Wolfman & George Perez's New Teen Titans.  Superman bored me early on, Batman was just ok.  I got into The Flash...loved Carmine Infantino on that book!  I'm still a Marvel guy, but sadly there's nothing I want to read now.
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David Spurlock
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 4  

I think the one thing that sucked me into the Marvel comics as a kid was the fact that these characters were located in real cities. Even as a kid, I knew that there was no real Gotham City or Metropolis, but New York was real. This, along with how "real" the Marvel characters were written, made the DC characters pale in comparison. Superman was pretty much unbeatable, even with kryptonite to weaken him. Batman could think his way out of anything. Green Lantern only had a weakness to the color yellow (which never quite made sense to me). But over at Marvel, Spider-Man was always broke or brokenhearted. The FF had money troubles from time to time too or they would end up fighting among themselves and then go their separate ways. Yeah, they just felt more "real" to me as a kid.

Edited by David Spurlock on 15 June 2011 at 6:59pm
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 5  

I mostly bought what I liked. Though at Marvel I prefered  the Avengers and Captain America over the Fantastic Four and Spider-Man. At DC I liked the Brave and the Bold, JLA and World's Finest more than Batman and Superman's solo books. It took Steve Englehart to make me a buy a Batman title on a regular basis and John Byrne make Superman and the Fantastic Four must buys. Though even JB couldn't make me a regular customer of Spider-Man.
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Brad Hague
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 7:03pm | IP Logged | 6  

It was Stan Lee, and Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko.  But number one in my mind is Stan. 

Everyone else was pretty much cookie cutter until Stan (and Jack - and Steve) rattled everything up.  Jack was a monster creatively and Steve did a great share as well for giving Stan a mighty playground in which to play.

I don't know when the sales figures changed in Marvel's favor, but certainly by the end of the 60's, the hippies clearly favored Marvel (Pink Floyd uses a scene from Dr. Strange on their second album cover "Saucerful of Secrets").

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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | 7  

I read Marvel and DC books as a kid, but almost always enjoyed Marvel
books more, and so bought more of them.
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 8  



Marvel all the way for me.  My brother only collected Marvel, and my buying habits were based on what he had in his collection.  Reading his X-Men and Fantastic Four sent me on the hunt for more of those stories.  Except Spider-Man, which he did not collect but I somehow got hooked on.  I think he bought me the paperback with the first issues.

DC had very little impact on me, even though I loved the first two Superman movies.  It didn't drive me to get the books.  I loved Teen Titans as a kid, and then after returning to comics in college, I read JB's Wonder Woman or Fourth World (whichever came first) when JB went over.  I wasn't collecting during Man of Steel.


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Brian Hague
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 9  

I've said this before, but my earliest Marvel experiences were unsatisfying and off-putting. Cap's costume being the same front and back made him appear anatomically wonky to my very young eyes. The police were after Spider-Man. My dad was a police officer. I was certain he wouldn't approve of my reading about some buggy super-hero who stole from people, or worse. Later, as I got older and began reading a variety of titles, Marvel included, the Marvels were always the one that came in on the middle of the story, usually in some villain's techno-wallpapered complex, told you things "were happening too fast to catch you up," showed you heroes running hither and yon, dodging ray blasts, punching out faceless multitudes of dumb minions, shock, cut-away to subplot 1, cutaway to subplot 2, surprise, plot twist, aaaaannnddd... to be continued, next ish, effendi!! Next issue, oh, hey, look, they're in some villain's techno-wallpapered complex running around...

I liked the characters well enough, but the stories? Show me a story, and I'll try to like it... Even then, Marvel was an endless morass of long, drawn-out affairs like the Secret Empire, The Story of Doom's Clone-Son, The Ring of the Nibelung, or The Korvac Saga... Good luck coming in on the start of anything.

DC conversely gave you complete stories most of the time, and for my money, far better artwork. Marvel had no one on the titles I was reading that could match the facial subtleties and emotions like Curt Swan. Plus, hey, gravity! Those characters looked like they were actually affected by the world around them. Cloth looked like cloth. I couldn't get enough of Curt Swan's stuff. Just next to that: Joe Staton! Fun characters, excellent storytelling. The next book over: Jim Aparo! Nobody beats Jim Aparo! And again, that Staton book may have been part of the Earthwar Saga, but they did flash back to what had occured previously, and the Swan and Aparo books were stand-alones, sometimes with back-ups to boot!

Yes, Marvel had John Buscema, but he was on Conan at the time I was coming into all this, and I didn't (and don't) care for Conan. I did buy several of his Thor issues, in the middle of some interminable Ragnarok storyline... There were reprints, and I picked those up occasionally... Usually they started in the middle of a story, in the midst of some villains fortress. The heroes would sneak around until they found his techno-wallpapered lab... the "present-day" Marvels were cookie-cutter looking affairs from Sal Buscema, Ron Wilson, or Frank Springer. Give him credit, at least the Springer stuff looked different... You could see how hard Alan Kupperberg was trying to match that vibe sometimes... Ross Andru characters held awkward, jagged poses. I liked John Romita when I saw him, but never the inking. Mike Esposito of the 70's never did it for me. Not one of them would I trade for Aparo.

Writing-wise, I never read a Marvel story during my formative years that grabbed me, shook me, and demanded my further attention. Usually I stuck to the team-up books, trying to get a beginning, middle, and end for my thirty-five cent investment. Plus, team-up books were cool. You got one guy you know you liked, the Thing, Spidey, Batman... and someone else you were likely just finding out about... Unfortunately, while the Brave and the Bold had great stuff month to month, Marvel treated their team-up books like farm teams, and it showed.

I never hated Marvel, although the tedious self-aggrandizing and heavy-handed slams at the "Distinguished Competition" made for nauseating reading at times. Stan was nimble enough to pull that off without sounding like a jerk. The rest? Not even close. Marvel struck me as arrogant at best. Snotty and discourteous the rest of the time.

DC was where the better characters were, with solid, imaginative stories the writers could actually finish. Characters with a wealth of history behind them, but not in any way inaccessible. Everything you needed for the story was laid out right there. I read that Marvelites can't hack multiple Earths and wonder how they wrap their heads around A.) Marvel's multiple Earths (Counter-Earth, Earth-S, & Earth-A back then...) or B.) which army of green or yellow suited buffoons worked for which Mega-Villain at any given time.

DC had better characters. Better stories. Better art. And with their numerous tabloid editions, Dollar Comics, and back-up features, you got you money's worth and more from them. Marvel... could never finish a story.

Eventually, I bought enough issues of What If to get a handle on most of the Marvel stable's backstories to enjoy them. My local library had a number of books on Comic History, so I enjoyed reading classic Lee, Kirby, and Ditko stories along the many EC reprints those contained. But that didn't translate into books bought off the stand until X-Men #113, and Defenders #62 found their way into my hands. From then on, I'd buy Marvels without the previous aversion I had for them, but DC continued to put out far better stuff.

I chalk up Marvel Zombie-hood to the Politics of Inclusion. Marvel tells you they're your buddy and your pal. They rub your tummy and pat your head for supporting them and their entirely self-serving ends. They care enough about you to tell you who your enemies are and ought to be. They point across the street and sneer while telling you how smart you look in those shoes of your's. Are those new? My goodness, don't you look good! So, let's get back to laughing at those substandard clowns across the street...

Marvel is Fox News.



Edited by Brian Hague on 15 June 2011 at 8:11pm
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Thomas Moudry
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 8:35pm | IP Logged | 10  

I remember reading the first Silver Surfer/Galactus story in Marvel's Greatest
Comics in the early '70s--around the same time I was reading The Amazing
Spider-Man and Marvel Team-Up, my first experiences with anything from
Marvel. They blew me away, but I still loved JLA, Superboy (with those LSH
backups), Teen Titans, The Brave and the Bold, Wonder Woman, and World's
Finest. I didn't necessarily think one publisher was better than the other;
they were just different.

However, in the early '80s, I was buying and reading more Marvel books that
DC books. That's when JB was on FF, Walt Simonson was on Thor, and Frank
Miller was on Daredevil--a golden age to be sure.

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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 10:00pm | IP Logged | 11  

 Derek S. Wilczynski wrote:
http://enterthestory.com/comic_sales.html


Hmm.  I don't know what to make of that graph.  It contradicts what I've always heard, that Marvel first surpassed DC in sales in 1971.  It also contradicts the data here that is gleaned from statements of ownership in the 60s.  It strikes as me as extremely unlikely that Marvel could have surpassed DC in sales as early as 1967.  At that point Marvel was still being distributed by National while DC was still enjoying the temporary sales bump generated by Batmania.  So I'd say it's almost certain that graph is incorrect in some way.

The 1969 data at comichron says that DC's best seller that year was Superman, selling 511,984 copies average, while Marvel's best seller was Spider-Man, selling 372,352.  DC had seven of the top 10 sellers, and Marvel had only one that year.  That fits with what I've read in other sources, that DC was declining but Marvel didn't overtake them until 1971. 

According to Roy Thomas, it was Marvel's 25 cents to 20 cents price shuffle that put them over the top in 1971.  The story goes that in the summer of 1971 both Marvel and DC were faced with having to increase prices.   They decided that rather than simply increase the price, they would go from 22 story pages for 15 cents to 48 story pages for 25 cents.  Even though the price of the total comic went up, the actual price per story page went down.  The hope was that a higher price per comic would make the books more attractive to retailers, and that readers would not mind the price increase since they were theoretically getting more value for their money.  Supposedly Martin Goodman made a gentlemen's agreement with DC that they would both try this size and price point. 

However, after just three months, Goodman reneged on the agreement and dropped Marvels down to 23 pages for 20 cents.  DC stuck with the 25 cent format for a year.  During that time readers overwhelmingly chose the Marvels, which were cheaper per comic but more expensive per page, and that was the point when Marvel overtook DC as the top seller overall.  The brilliance of Goodman's move is that it made a price increase look like a price reduction.

 


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 15 June 2011 at 10:21pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 15 June 2011 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | 12  

From age 2 (or whenever I started looking at comics) until age 8, I preferred DCs.  Aside from a couple issues of Spider-Man, I tended to find Marvels less accessible and the stories less interesting.  Right after I turned 8 I got heavily into Marvels, and for the next two years they were my overwhelming fave... at that point the heavy soap opera style sub-plots and interlocking continuity really appealed to me, whereas before it had annoyed me.  Around age 10 I started getting back into DCs again, and from then on I collected both equally. 

Looking back, it's clear the DCs of the 60's and 70's were pitched to a younger audience than the Marvels.  DCs were clearly plot-driven while Marvels were character driven.  Around the late 70's DC started Marvelizing their approach, and eventually the distinction between the two companies vanished. 

Presently I have no preference for one or the other.  It depends on the mood I'm in, and what type of story I feel like reading.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 15 June 2011 at 10:52pm
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