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Topic: The Wedding of River Song ( Spoilers ) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Phil Frances
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Posted: 01 October 2011 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 1  

Brilliant ! I won't give anything away here, aside of saying - developments mean there is more to come beyond the end of this season ....
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Michael Lee
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Posted: 01 October 2011 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | 2  

Great episode. Certainly more to come. I have a feeling we won't get the end to this story until the 50th anniversary season.

I think I was first on this board to suggest the use of [redacted] as a solution to [also redacted]. It's nice for my speculations to be proven right for once


Edited by Michael Lee on 01 October 2011 at 5:25pm
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Stuart Vandal
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Posted: 01 October 2011 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 3  

It's not really important, but you weren't the first to suspect that. I'd refer you to my post on 30th August in the Let's Kill Hitler thread.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 01 October 2011 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | 4  

A cascade of Neat Bits that did not add up to a story. Too many cheats, too many dodges.

More than ever I am convinced Moffat did not have the end worked out when he wrote the beginning. In a way, I was reminded of the X-MEN days, with Chris. Chris would come up with "a great bit" (A mysterious astronaut rises from a lake and kills the Doctor!) and I would say "But then what?"

I have the feeling Moffat has no one asking that question.

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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 01 October 2011 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | 5  

Well, I knew the deliberate and convenient staging of the situation (the abandoned boat, the gasoline) meant he was probably staging an illusion, and with the way he used the Tesselecta, he was sort of playing fair by actually being there himself.

I do think that Moffat knew his out at the beginning, though. The burning did, after all, serve the dual function of "selling the bit" and removing the evidence that it was a "bit".

The "hole" that is left seems to be "the fall of the 11th" and "the question" which is probably being spaced out to coincide with the 50th and possibly a new Doctor. Tennant got 3 seasons + specials (I'd say 4 seasons, but that's not how they count them), and that seems to be about average for the Doctors. 3-4 seasons would bring Matt Smith right up to the anniversary and it might be that we'll see a new Doctor then.

Not that I want Matt Smith gone, he's my favourite Doctor and I think he's got a lot of mileage left, but it's a big chunk of career for a young actor and he's bound to get offers.

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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 01 October 2011 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | 6  

If you go by Tennant's statements, he left the show because he didn't
ever want the Doctor to get stale to him and feel like work. He
wanted to leave liking the role. But it seemed like he could have
stayed on with the show beyond 3 seasons.

As far as this show goes, I think the temporal elements of the show
were effecting my TV. It was jumping, pausing and blacked out bits.
I'm DVRing a later showing to see if I can get a cleaner copy.
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John Harrison
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 12:10am | IP Logged | 7  

Fairly predictable .. i'm starting get a Lost vibe.. while I enjoy the show it seems fairly let's just pull something out of the hat solutions..


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James Revilla
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 1:02am | IP Logged | 8  

I loved everything but the cheat on the death. If him dying was a fixed
point and by her not killing him caused fine to rupture...the fact
remains she didn't kill him just a robot. Not quite the paradox I
expected.
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 1:15am | IP Logged | 9  

I`m sure that in another universe those Eye Drives would be called...Eye-pads!

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Emery Calame
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 1:15am | IP Logged | 10  

The only fixed temporal event was River/Melody attempting to and appearing to kill him. I thought it was kind of dumb and I hope that the "quiet doctor" premise doesn't turn into "Batman is just an urban legend".

Also, the the whole thing with the companions being present seems either very sadistic or downright sociopathic though I suppose they are part of the fixed point in time nonsense.

Honestly I'm a little surprised that they didn't show the "vortex of time" shuddering or raging or developing gaps or something.

I think even fixed time versus "meh, screw it " time is probably a bad idea unless it is whimsically introduced and then mocked and laughed at shortly thereafter to keep things whimsical. Dr Who is about good tasting sausage not the means and process of how the sausage is made. 

Also if "Doctor Who?" was REALLY the first question then probably it is a fact that  should be hidden in the closet in a hatbox under some quilts so that it doesn't become "important" to people who want Dr Who to make sense over the long haul. 

I dunno. I'm probably not going to remember the 6th season very fondly the way I did the first, second, most of the third, the specials, and the fifth. Oh and I sort of liked the Donna episode where the doctor take a tour of a canyon of crystal planet by himself and has to deal with a strange monster that enters the tour vehicle, and it pretty much licks him until the stewardess throws the thing out at the cost of her own life.


Edited by Emery Calame on 02 October 2011 at 1:35am
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 1:22am | IP Logged | 11  

The Doctor being perceived as having died, was the fixed point in time. It was always the Tesselecta by the lake, operated by the Doctor. The Doctor set that up in the first five minutes of the episode.

The "universe" doesn't care what happens in the fixed point, all that matters are the consequences of it. Namely the universal belief that the Doctor has died/will die there. Any future adventure may be chalked down to time-travel.

Yes, it's all timey-wimey and argle-bargle, but we all knew the Doctor would get out of it, and I think they did a good job of not making it easy. (That is, the Doctor's plan was quite simple and straight-forward, but making his friends stop trying to save him was hard)

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Colin Fawcett
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 2:47am | IP Logged | 12  

Loved it. 

There was a cool River's eye view of events shown last night :

Spoilers obviously
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James Revilla
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 3:45am | IP Logged | 13  

I just think that a fixed point in time being sidestepped by a robot that
can start glowing with what looks like regenerative power is just a little
too deus ex machina for me, even for Dr. Who.
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 5:16am | IP Logged | 14  

Well,now we know he isn`t dead,here`s a couple of pics from the Xmas special being filmed...
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 5:16am | IP Logged | 15  

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John Byrne
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 5:40am | IP Logged | 16  

The only fixed temporal event was River/Melody attempting to and appearing to kill him. I thought it was kind of dumb and I hope that the "quiet doctor" premise doesn't turn into "Batman is just an urban legend".

Is there another option? Now that "everybody" thinks the Doctor is dead, and apparently this is a Historic Fact that actually MOTIVATES some people, then the Doctor must forevermore act behind the scenes, in secret, never, ever telling anyone he meets who he is!

Of course, with a time traveller, the whole thing falls apart in an instant anyway. The Doctor "died" in 2011? He's so famous, so legendary, that on some worlds the word "Doctor" means "warrior". Why weren't the First, Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth and Tenth Doctors met with surprise when they introduced themselves? Why didn't people who met him AFTER 2011 greet him like Snake Pliskin? "I thought you were dead?"

DOCTOR WHO is notorious for ignoring its own continuity, often being written as if each story operates in complete isolation from all that has gone before, but this past few seasons has pushed this to and even beyond the limit.

And, of course, this really does now leave us with a Doctor who is 200 years older than he was last season. A Doctor who apparently spent TWO CENTURIES wandering around feeling sorry for himself as his "inevitable" death approached.

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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 6:26am | IP Logged | 17  

While I suppose the "1109" age is now going to be canonical, given that the Doctor was staging an illusion and was aware of being watched and listened to, he might well have lied about his age in order to create the illusion, when travelling around later, that his post-"death" not-yet-1109-years-old self was in fact a pre-"death" version.

As for the cruelty of having companions present, they needed to be there (and unaware) in order to "sell" the bit. They also needed to be there to dispose of the Tesselecta, which would otherwise surely have been picked up by the Silence or their agents, who would then know that it wasn't the Doctor.

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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 6:30am | IP Logged | 18  

The question should never be answered until the show's final episode.

After all, I'm sure the joke is, "hidden in plain sight" means the show's
title and the "first question" means the question that has been asked
since the show first began.

(And don't we have a slight logical disconnect here---the only way to
stop the Doctor from asking the question on that specific day was to
kill him and he is being told since he avoided his death that he will ask
the question on that day; aren't they setting this up as a fixed point
too? So, if the later event is fixed, how did the Silence think they could
stop it with another fixed event)

Edited by Kip Lewis on 02 October 2011 at 7:58am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 19  

In recent years I have been saying that American superhero comics have become nothing more than glorified fanzines. Professionalism has all but disappeared, and what lies between the covers of the latest issues is all too often the worst kind of fanboy self-indulgence or (perhaps worse) a kind of negative fanboy self-indulgence.

I think the same thing has been afflicting DOCTOR WHO for quite some time, now. Much like comics, we have seen the "Old Guard" drop away, until the people in charge of the show are largely those who grew up as fans of the show. And this has generated the same kind of muddled thinking that has also beset comics. To borrow once again Len Wein's oft-quoted observation that "the first story you'd do as a fan should be the last story you'd do as a pro", DOCTOR WHO since his "return" six years ago has been a whirlwind of what begins, cumulatively, to seem like fanfic.

The Doctor's relationship with Rose, for instance. Of all the female Companions down the years, none of whom seem to have stirred any romantic longings in him, suddenly the Doctor is smitten? And she with him, which is also something new -- tho, in a move that also smacks of fanboy wish-fulfillment, we find out retroactively that at least one of his former companions, Sara Jane Smith, remained unmarried because of her unrequited love for the Doctor.*

Perhaps the ultimate example of fan-mentality sneaking into the show is River Song. A character who pops into DOCTOR WHO continuity out of nowhere for one episode -- and creates some fun and interesting ripples -- becomes CENTRAL to the whole mythology. This smacks of "Mary Sue" gone wild. Even the "finale" title -- really, was THAT the most important thing in the episode? And didn't someone ELSE get married? Someone who has been around a LOT longer?

The show has become a lot "sexier", too, even beyond romantic implications. "Adult" costumes and references abound. Winks at the audience that would have been unthinkable in what, after all, used to be a KID'S SHOW.

Like Marvel characters becoming (literally) bigger and stronger, until Spider-Man's "strength of ten men" becomes the ability to lift 10 tons (around 9000 kilograms, for our readers in the rest of the world), the Doctor has become something of a cross between Superman and Maxwell Smart. To paraphrase, he never meets an alien race he doesn't know. And the ultimate elevation occurs when we learn that he is so entwined in Galactic history that, as noted in my prior post, on some worlds the word "doctor" actually means "warrior"!

I was talking with a friend last night, after the broadcast of the "finale" on BBC America, and I mentioned that I preferred "my" characters to be "smaller". I liked the early days of Marvel, for instance, when Doctor Strange was "a name whispered in shadows", not the "Sorcerer Supreme". When the Thing could lift "only" five tons, or the Hulk could fit thru a normal door.

The "conclusion" of the "finale" may be intended as a step toward returning the Doctor to a more manageable level -- but how many bells can be un-rung? We can never again expect, of course, to see something akin to the mysterious old man, traveling with his granddaughter in a time machine that he built and she named! But how much of the fanfic can really be pared away? And to legions of fans for whom this IS the Doctor, how much would be acceptable?




* Somewhat creepy, when we consider the Doctors with whom she travelled! This is another example of something else that has crept into the show -- a habit of treating the current Doctor as if he has ALWAYS been the Doctor.

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Bill Collins
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 20  

I always thought the fact that the title of the show doesn`t have a question mark changes it from a question to a statement.After all this is a show from the BBC,they were even more sticklers for proper english in 1963!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 7:31am | IP Logged | 21  

The inclusion of a question mark in the title might at least have spared us "generations" of fans who insist on calling the CHARACTER "Doctor Who".

And might have clued in the folk at Hammer when they made the movies, too!

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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 8:50am | IP Logged | 22  

The scene regarding the Brigadier seemed a bit forced and out of place. Why attempt to contact him now of all times?
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Michael Lee
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 23  

I think the elder Doctor was still in "finish bits of business" mode, as he was when he visited Craig last episode.

And Stuart, my apologies. I must not have read your earlier Tessalecta speculation.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 24  

I agree with JB's comment about several "neat bits" that did not add up to a great whole. What I liked about original DOCTOR WHO is that it had great story arcs that didn't necessarily feel like they had to build up to something GRAND for a season finale. Even Tennant's specials in 2009 paled to the final Tom Baker season, in which "entropy" wove through the episodes thematically, leading to a really solid end for the 4th Doctor.

So, the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th season finales involve alternate timelines in which the events effectively didn't happen or don't matter.

Narratively, this did read like fan fiction with things happening because they had to happen (Amy and Rory). The Doctor in the alternate timeline is the robot Doctor? Huh? How? It would have been far better if the Doctor had entered the episode proactively -- "My death is inevitable? Well, I'm going to show that it's evitable" (to borrow from Fred Burkle).

Let's just examine what happens: The Silence wants to kill The Doctor and it does so by putting River into a spacesuit that controls her actions. Granted, the whole plan really only works if The Doctor willingly goes to his death. And why is River necessary? We saw a super assasin in Let's Kill Hitler but a super assasin is not necessary in a machine that controls its user? Anyone could be in it. Is it just to torment the Doctor before he dies? OK.

And it pains me to see Moffat create wonderful monsters and then diminish them in second outings. The Silence in IMPOSSIBLE ASTRONAUTDAY OF THE MOON were brilliant. This time, less so. The concept of "super parasites" on Earth is creepy and fascinating. Non-speaking members of a religious order, not so much.

Also, this episode demonstrated one serious issue with the back-and-forth timelines for the Doctor and River. River is willing to destroy the universe because the loves the Doctor so much. But we don't have a peg on "when" this River is from and what actually justifies this love. We're told this, which is unfortunate for a character we've seen so many times. River's sacrifice in FOREST OF THE DEAD played on this conceit (we never saw the adventures River had with the Doctor) but I thought that was a trick you could play once.

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Bill Collins
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Posted: 02 October 2011 at 10:28am | IP Logged | 25  

Regarding the bit with the Brigadier,couldn`t The Doctor have used the Tardis to go to a point in recent time to say his goodbyes while the Brigadier was still alive? How can anyone be ever really dead when you have a time machine and can go visit them at any point in their lifetime?  Just saying!
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