Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 7 Next >>
Topic: Occupy Frank Miller (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15541
Posted: 13 November 2011 at 10:21pm | IP Logged | 1  

To paint the OWS protesters with one brush is just wrong. And for all Miller's talk of enlisting the protesters in the army, some of the protesters are veterans (at least a couple of which of which have received ill treatment by the police). 

Edited by Paulo Pereira on 13 November 2011 at 10:41pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Josh Goldberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2033
Posted: 13 November 2011 at 10:50pm | IP Logged | 2  

"You don't like the way this country is run VOTE..."

***

Excellent idea!  I had no idea the solution was so simple.  Oh, but what happens if you get to the polls and they turn you away because you're Black, or Poor, or (gasp) a Democrat(!)?

What if the party in control doesn't like the outcome of the election and they convenietly find a whole bunch of paper ballots at the last minute that put their candidate over the top, or the electronic voting results mysteriously and suddenly change, or the Supreme Court steps in and declares their guy the winner?

Not that such crazy things could ever happen in a free country like ours...just a "What If..."

Back to Top profile | search
 
Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7014
Posted: 13 November 2011 at 11:09pm | IP Logged | 3  

Though I feel that Miller may indeed have some valid points, he
weakens his argument with his seemingly random vitriol towards the
Occupiers. I mean, "thieves" may be a bit over the line, but "rapists" is
way, way over it.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15541
Posted: 13 November 2011 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | 4  

 Michael Roberts wrote:
Also, anyone who uses any variation of "get a job" in this economy is an idiot and an asshole.

I was thinking along the same lines.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15541
Posted: 13 November 2011 at 11:19pm | IP Logged | 5  

Some interesting reading. Not so much a counterpoint to Miller's rant, but more an excuse to pick apart 300.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
Posted: 13 November 2011 at 11:35pm | IP Logged | 6  

"There's no doubt that advice to enlist most often carries weight by offered by one who actually served in the military (tho' those of a certain turn of mind might dismiss this as the advice of a militarist), but the validity of the advice doesn't depend on the messenger.  "

As I pointed out, I don't think it necessarily does.

But when Miller uses it as part of a moral rebuke of the protesters the way he does, he does claim a certain moral authority from which to give that advice. And that's my point. He's saying "You're a bunch of whiners, the Military would make real men out of you". While clearly identifying himself as having the qualities military service would give them. Yet he never served.

If he had said "You're a bunch of pathetic whiners. Enlist. The military will straigthen you out. You don't want to be in your fifties and still be a pathetic whiner. Like me. Do you?" then at least he would have lamented his own failure to serve, rather than give the (false)  impression that he spoke from the experience of having served.

It is not the fact that he adviced them to enlist that I quibble about, it's how he did it.

We all know that on various issues there are arguments that can be fairly subjective and emotional, not necessarily objectively relevant, but still emotionally relevant to the speaker. Arguments like "you don't have kids, so you don't understand", "this didn't happen to you, so you don't understand". And arguments like "You should enlist, it would knock some sense into you" and "kids today have it easy" fall into that camp. There is implicit in these arguments the claim of authority on an issue based on personal experience.

And while they may not strictly be relevant to a discussion, they are nevertheless (emotionally) powerful arguments that cannot be argued against because they are purely subjective. And while we may not base our decisions entirely on them, they are accepted as having some validity based on that personal experience. Often it shuts down counter-arguments as well, since it is impossible to argue against without slighting the importance of that personal experience, which would open a whole can of worms.

A lot of people love using these arguments for that very reason. Even people who have never had the personal experiences in question.

And that's what I don't like about Chickenhawks. They speak of military service with a personal authority reserved for those who actually served. And by doing that, they create the false impression that they served.

Seriously, any man who says "The military will make a real man out of you" without also saying "look at me, I didn't enlist, and I'm not a real man" is claiming to be a real man, and to be so so courtesy of the military.

I'm not saying you have to enlist to be a real man , by the way.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve Ogden
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1263
Posted: 14 November 2011 at 12:44am | IP Logged | 7  

I very rarely, if ever get into debates with anyone here when it comes to region and or politics.
But, this is getting to me. With this whole "occupy" thing really pisses me off.  We have a bunch of people in our society that expect something for nothing always with a hand out.  I am sick of it.  If these idiots would spend half the amount of time looking of a job and/or working that they spend "occupying" the results would be shocking to them-they would be working.  Now, I don't want hear about that there are no jobs are available.  There are jobs out there, it is just not the jobs they want to do.  See, they don't have to work; they just protest to justify "poor old me"  "the man is rich" and all of the other bullshit rhetoric and not work.
I have earned every dollar that has passed through my hands. So has a bunch of other people; I know I am not the only one. We are working hard every day and our energy and focus is to take care of our families. And, what I don't have I blame no one.  If I want something I work hard to earn it. It is very simple. If you can't afford the big house- don't buy it, if you can't afford kids- don't have them, if can't afford a new car don't buy it.
I would wager that most of these "protesters" never owned a home, never had a job more than 6 months.  And since Tower Records no longer exists, I am sure that some of them did not work since they closed.


Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Tony Midyett
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 January 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 2834
Posted: 14 November 2011 at 1:32am | IP Logged | 8  

"You don't like the way this country is run VOTE..."

***

Excellent idea! I had no idea the solution was so
simple. Oh, but what happens if you get to the polls and
they turn you away because you're Black, or Poor, or
(gasp) a Democrat(!)?

What if the party in control doesn't like the outcome of
the election and they convenietly find a whole bunch of
paper ballots at the last minute that put their candidate
over the top, or the electronic voting results
mysteriously and suddenly change, or the Supreme Court
steps in and declares their guy the winner?

Not that such crazy things could ever happen in a free
country like ours...just a "What If..."

-----------------------------------------------------

What if you think that voting for the lesser of 2 evils
means you're still supporting evil? At least you have a
horse in the race. I don't even have a country, let
alone a vote.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eddie Avila
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 May 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 115
Posted: 14 November 2011 at 1:57am | IP Logged | 9  


I think the one response to the older generation that whine constantly and make sweeping generalizations about the "entitlement generation" that I've come up with is "You didn't have to work that hard. You had it easy.". Say it in the most snarky, dismissive way possible. Smile while doing so. Make sure that every single moment of their life they had to work for what they have is tossed aside by a simple "you had it easy".

Did you say what you meant to say, cuz, frankly, that makes no sense at all!


************************************************************ ***************

It took a couple of reads, but what he's saying is that he's frustrated with Baby Boomers making generalizations about his generation, and that he fires back at them by being dismissive of everything they pride themselves in.  I don't know if that makes it much clearer, but I agree with his sentiment.

Baby Boomers, it can be said, benefitted tremendously from the New Deal, then they promptly dismantled it.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Eddie Avila
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 May 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 115
Posted: 14 November 2011 at 2:10am | IP Logged | 10  

Knut, you're right on.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1503
Posted: 14 November 2011 at 2:43am | IP Logged | 11  

Love that guy's rebuttal of Miller and critique of 300.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eddie Avila
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 May 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 115
Posted: 14 November 2011 at 2:53am | IP Logged | 12  

I'm just curious, how many of us posting about the OWS Movement have spent more than an hour at any of the encampments?  How many of us have not even driven by one?

I've spent a few days (but not nights) there (in LA).  And, yes, at least here in LA there have been incidents.  I almost always see someone smoking pot (and I've helped the Security Committee to STRONGLY SUGGEST, successfully, that they leave and not shit on the sacrifices that so many have made just to prove how cool they think they are).  I know that there are things that have been stolen.  And I know that some of the women there are concerned for their safety.

One woman I spent a lot of time talking with has been here in at OLA since day one.  She's from NY but was laid off of her job last summer.  Nothing was panning out for her so she took advantage of an opportunity to come to LA and found herself in the encampment at City Hall.  She had a lot of concerns about the non-serious people who just show up at whatever event is going on.  But she's also at the end of her rope.  She relies on the meals served by OLA.  She has no money of her own to get a place but she is responsible for allocating the money donated to OLA for practical things the movement needs.  Consequently, she has to deal directly with situations where some OLA members have been irresponsible with the funds entrusted to them.  But the reality is that many of the people there are not serious.

That partly has to do with the fact that LA County Sheriffs have been releasing people from LA County Jail right there at OLA.  I saw it happen.  I also heard that hospitals have dropped of mental patients there.

The movement seems to be at a phase where they have captured the nation's attention and people are now having a different conversation.  It doesn't seem to be so much about the deficit anymore.  For a short time, it was about people being upset with Wall Street, as they should be, but it is increasingly becoming more about the spectacle of the movement itself.

I've brainstormed with OLA and the LA County Federation of Labor to try to figure out a plan to deal with this.  I'm considering going to the Catholic Church for help (I know, that sounds like a stretch, but it won't hurt to try, and you never know what could happen).  I'm very concerned for the lady I mentioned above and I know that every night, when I turn out the light and retreat under the covers, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of women like her all over this country, making tremendous sacrifices so that I, and my children, and their children, and your children can live in a better world.  I feel a responsibility towards them.  Sometimes I think that might be a trait I developed from reading comic books growing up.  Does anybody else ever think about Peter Parker not stopping that thief and apply the lesson he learned in your own life?  I do.

Those who complain about the movement are not, for the most part, saying that their gripes are unfounded.  Granted, some people are saying this but it is obviously clear to the majority of Americans (as well as being factually accurate) that those who say they are wrong are just plain wrong themselves.  There is nothing of any substance in Miller's rant (point it out to me, if I'm wrong), but his complaint seems to be just against people who complain?  It makes it clear that one needn't be a rocket scientist, nor even a clear thinker to be a great comic book creator.

I'm a fan of Sin City, and a huge fan of the Dark Knight stories.  Ronin and Elektra:  Assassin are just about the greatest comic book stories I've ever read.  But I think I've bought my last piece of Frank Miller's work.  Holy Terror! was just about the worst executed pieces of crap I've ever been excited to pay for.  Now, combine that with the undeniable knowledge that by patronizing Miller, I'm supporting a complete dick and it's easy to put Frank Miller right there with Dennis Miller, another guy so offensive to me that I just won't go there.  Oh yeah, All-Star Batman and Robin!  Crap, crap, crap!  The guy is done.
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 7 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login