Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 5 Next >>
Topic: OT: Falkland Islands (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Brett Wilson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 April 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 318
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 11:39am | IP Logged | 1  

I'd say Argentina has more of a claim to the Islas Malvinas than the UK does. The Islands are 200 miles or so off the coast of Argentina, they could claim them as a natural extension of their territory. Imagine if Argentina or another country on another continent claimed the Isle of Man as their territory.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dan Avenell
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 March 2008
Posts: 1038
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 2  

How far away is Hawaii from the coast of the US? 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 7051
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 11:56am | IP Logged | 3  

How far is Alaska from the U.S.? Didn`t Texas belong to Mexico?



Edited by Bill Collins on 01 March 2012 at 11:57am
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Stuart Vandal
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 137
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 4  

"Imagine if Argentina or another country on another continent claimed the Isle of Man as their territory."

And if the inhabitants of the Isle of Man said they wanted to be Argentinian, then Argentina would have every right to make that claim.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brett Wilson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 April 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 318
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 12:08pm | IP Logged | 5  

Alaska was actually purchased from Russia and Hawaii was taken over via coup, Texas was taken over after a war. Many native Hawaiians resent being part of the US (native Hawaiians on the U of Hawaii football team won't stand for the US national anthem before games) I'm not saying it's a great argument, but people in Argentina view the Islands as a British colonial possession that they refuse to give up, as do most people in South America where I live. Just trying to give another viewpoint in this debate.  I honestly wonder why anyone wants the Islands, there isn't much there aside from grazing goats.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 7051
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 6  

Offshore oil and fishing rights?
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Brett Wilson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 April 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 318
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 7  

And if the inhabitants of the Isle of Man said they wanted to be Argentinian, then Argentina would have every right to make that claim.

Yeah but the British government would not have tolerated that, they didn't allow an independent Irish republic until after years of violent struggle.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Simon Bowland
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: England
Posts: 380
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 8  

The point is, the Falkland Islands are a British Overseas Territory - Argentina has no claim on them, any more than France has a claim on the British Isles. Argentina has only started this most recent "dispute" because there's now a suspicion of some generously-sized oil fields off the coast of the Falklands. They want to get their hands on that oil.
Back to Top profile | search | www | email
 
Stuart Vandal
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 137
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 9  

The only claim Argentina has to it ties to past Spanish colonialism. If they really want to see colonialism end, then they need to respect the right of self-determination. Arguing that doesn't count because the Islanders are not "native" is a crock - after all, by that same definition of native, most Argentinians are not native to their country. The logic seems to be that you are only entitled to decide your own nationality if your ancestors who settled in a given region found some natives already living there, subjugated them, killed many of them and stole their land.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dan Avenell
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 March 2008
Posts: 1038
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 10  

So Brett, what claim does the US have over Hawaii? The answer is that its over 2000 miles from mainland US btw, not 250 as the Falklands are from Argentina.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Stuart Vandal
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 137
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 11  

"Yeah but the British government would not have tolerated that, they didn't allow an independent Irish republic until after years of violent struggle."

Back in the first few decades of the last century, perhaps. I won't argue Britain still had a colonial mindset then - something to do with having an empire at the time. But things have moved on a lot since then. At the moment Scotland is working towards a vote on independence, and while the UK government might be arguing with the Scottish parliament over the specific details of how the vote gets carried out, there's no question of them disallowing a vote, or of trying to use force to stop Scotland if the vote ends up in favour of independence.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brett Wilson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 April 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 318
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 12  

I'm not arguing the US has a legit claim on Hawaii, as I pointed out Hawaii was acquired through underhanded means and most native Hawaiians resent being subjugated to US rule.

Stuart, Argentina makes its claim to the islands based on the international law concept of terrestrial domain, which basically states that a country's territory can also include nearby landmasses, such as islands that are not necessarily connected to that country's main land mass. The Philippines has used this to claim numerous islands. I'm not a legal expert by any means, but this is the argument they are putting forth.




Edited by Brett Wilson on 01 March 2012 at 1:23pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Monte Gruhlke
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3244
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 13  

I was taken aback once while visiting the main island of Hawaii. I was next in line at the airport ticket counter, and the clerk told the guy in front of me that due to plane delays, then next plane back to the States would arrive tomorrow. 

Back to the States? Wha? And me without my passport.
Back to Top profile | search | email
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 6660
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | 14  

As far as a junta, the history of the British Empire outshines the Argentine junta's in that regard many times over doesn't it?
------------------------------------------------------------ -------
Well, the British Empire may well outshine the Argentine Junta for many things, both good and bad, but 'in that regard' -- making people within their own country disappear -- I don't think so.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Stuart Vandal
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 137
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 15  

"Argentina makes its claim to the islands based on the international law concept of terrestrial domain, which basically states that a country's territory can also include nearby landmasses, such as islands that are not necessarily connected to that country's main land mass."

Not quite. They might well be including that as a reason, but since that law doesn't give countries rights to claim inhabited islands out from under the inhabitants, they also say "Spain claimed ownership and they gave it to us when they gave us independence." So the history of Argentina's claim is just as steeped in colonialism as Britain's. Plus, I'm not sure "nearby landmasses" can come into play when you are talking 200 miles away. But again, it doesn't really matter, because the crux of the matter remains that the people who have lived on the Falklands for generations, are the only people who should have a say on the disposition of the islands.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: England
Posts: 3931
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 16  

I don't know much about international law. It'd be nice if someone here in England could get a panel of experts on international law to appear on a news programme and provide some legal context with regards to the Falkland Islands.

From a historical perspective, well once again, no nation has a perfect history, many have annexed land and gained territories through less-than-ethical means. However, NO-ONE here should feel guilty for the actions of their ancestors. No-one. We should strive to act in an ethical manner in the future, but what happened 200 or more years ago happened, all we can is try and improve our world in the future.

I just feel that, in all the arguments in the media about this, people are forgetting about the islanders themselves. It's as though the inhabitants and Nigel Haywood, Governor of the Falkland Islands, aren't allowed a say, it's all Argentina and the UK in the media. The media seems to have forgotten them.

I am friends with a lady in the Falkland Islands and she would feel a little offended by some of the comments in the media and one of the comments made in this post. International law aside - which again, I know nothing about - it's up to the islanders. It has nothing to do with the likes of Sean Penn.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Tim Cousar
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1174
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 17  

Cuba's only 90 miles from Florida and 140 miles from Mexico, so 200's not close enough for that claim.

Edited by Tim Cousar on 01 March 2012 at 3:26pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brett Wilson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 April 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 318
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 18  

Yes, however the Falklands has never been an established state, Cuba was granted independence (in a way) after the Spanish-American War. Either way there is no way any state or multi national body can make the UK give up the islands.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 3736
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 5:56pm | IP Logged | 19  

Look up St. Pierre and Miquelon, if you are unfamiliar with these islands. Tiny islands off the coast of Newfoundland that are French territory. 20 km from Newfoundland. Do you see Canada rattling sabres and demanding they be repatriated back from the French? Nope. Lots of Newfoundland tourists go to visit to get French food. If the people wanted to join Canada, I really doubt France would force them to remain French. They live there; their choice. Simple. 
Back to Top profile | search | www | email
 
Stuart Vandal
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 137
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 20  

"the Falklands has never been an established state"
and that means the islanders have no rights to decide their own fate because...?

Neil, great example.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brett Wilson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 April 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 318
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 21  

No it just means everything is going to be much more complicated because it isn't a state, states will try to claim them as Argentina is attempting to do.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Stuart Vandal
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 137
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 6:47pm | IP Logged | 22  

"No it just means everything is going to be much more complicated because it isn't a state, states will try to claim them as Argentina is attempting to do."

But most states in this day and age don't - see Neil's example regarding Canada and St. Pierre. A state trying to claim control of somewhere and insisting those who live there have no rights in the decision is very much a colonialist attitude. Funny how Argentina tries to label Britain as having that kind of attitude, when Britain is the one respecting what the locals want.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1123
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 23  

Hi Neil,

I am afraid there is not much for me to elaborate.  I call them the Malvinas because that is the name the Argentines call them.  I don't like colonial powers or military juntas.  Not sure what else I can say.

Thanks.



Back to Top profile | search
 
Stuart Vandal
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 137
Posted: 01 March 2012 at 10:44pm | IP Logged | 24  

"I call them the Malvinas because that is the name the Argentines call them.  I don't like colonial powers"

The Argentinians use of Malvinas is part of their insistence that they own the islands, and never mind what the people live there want. So using that name is supporting that opinion, despite it being very much a colonial attitude.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Emery Calame
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5270
Posted: 02 March 2012 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 25  

It's nice to want things. But the Falklands belong to the UK.
Back to Top profile | search | email
 

<< Prev Page of 5 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login