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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 87181
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| Posted: 23 July 2012 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 1
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In another thread, this…
…elicited a cry of pain from me, for what must be familiar reasons to most hereabouts, by now. This time I decided to look a bit further, and checked the four commercial hand lettering fonts I have on my computer. 
This merely confirmed what I have been saying for years. Many people using hand lettering fonts apparently do so without realizing these ALL CAPS styles still have their own versions of "upper" and "lower" case. But thinking "Comicbooks are lettered in all caps," these folk are obviously hitting the CAPS LOCK key, and the result is what we see above. First line, typed normally, second line typed with CAPS LOCK. The Spider-Man cartoon appears to use the last of the four fonts -- with CAPS LOCK on. sigh
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Barry Maine Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 06 June 2012 Posts: 153
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| Posted: 23 July 2012 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 2
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Interesting. This is something I wouldn't have ever thought about or even noticed before. I admit to being a layman when it comes to the technical aspects of comic books. So I also admit I don't understand the difference between the two. I can't find the history of this familiar cry. Can someone link me or help me understand why it matters?
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William Roberge Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 9317
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| Posted: 23 July 2012 at 8:37am | IP Logged | 3
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I think the "why", to me at least, is that it just doesn't look right.
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Andrew Hess Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9437
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| Posted: 23 July 2012 at 8:51am | IP Logged | 4
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JB - it's not just with comics.
As a graphic designer I work with all sorts of clients who hand off text for me to layout in articles, posters, billboards, etc. ALL of them give me text docs where the headline is in ALL CAPS. Why? "Because headlines are always in bold, right?"
Well, no...and there are better ways to indicate bold, and because it's typed in all caps I need to retype it.
I just did a form with a full page of text that was in ALL CAPS (that I had to retype) because "it's all important information."
Fortunately, it has in fact been years since I got an email that was all in caps.
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 87181
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| Posted: 23 July 2012 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 5
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Recently, I had occasion to post the old. . .
sign. There the serifs on the "I" work, because ALL the letters have serifs. But in the middle of a bunch of plain letters, those serifs leap out at me as jarringly as would a change of font.
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Barry Maine Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 06 June 2012 Posts: 153
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| Posted: 23 July 2012 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 6
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Okay, I kind of get the consistency thing in the middle of the word. I apologize if this next question is too simple.
So, are the even serifs correct with the above fonts if the I is supposed to be capitalized when none of the other capitals have serifs?
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 87181
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| Posted: 23 July 2012 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 7
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So, are the even serifs correct with the above fonts if the I is supposed to be capitalized when none of the other capitals have serifs?•• As I said, even tho comicbook lettering is traditionally ALL CAPS, it still has its own kind of upper and lower case. Thus, a serifed "I" for the personal pronoun, as in "I", "I'm", "I'd" etc. And, if one MUST, for words like Indiana. There is also a J with serifs, for proper names like "James" and when a J word falls at the beginning of a sentence. But, again as I said, "letterers" -- who in many cases these days are just typists -- seem to have no concept of the "language" of comics, and so, knowing comicbook lettering is "ALL CAPS" hit the CAPS LOCK key, apparently not realizing that with most commercial fonts that is not necessary. (Perhaps they cut their typing teeth on fonts like Comic Sans, which actually HAS lower case, in the fashion of that madness Marvel went thru a while back.)
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Rick Shepherd Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 25 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 615
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| Posted: 23 July 2012 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 8
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I like to think of the serifs being for the 'CAPS' in an 'ALL CAPS' font - i.e., 'capitalised' capitals, if that makes sense. Probably comes more naturally to me, for a rather esoteric reason - I never quite learned how to hold a pen properly (not sure why, though it might also be partly why I can't click my fingers in my right hand - everything's very subtly 'off'), and so I actually find writing in capital letters faster and less laborious than writing in joined-up. Oh, sure - for neater stuff, I can agonise over doing things 'properly', but in most cases, expediency means caps for me.
As a result, to distinguish between the 'capital' letters in names, proper nouns, etc., I'd write those caps larger than the other letters, similar to the size/height difference between capital/lower case letters normally. So for me, there's a difference between 'lower capitals', and 'capital capitals'. Again, I'm hoping this all makes some kind of sense... ...anyone?
With all that in mind, reading the Spider-Man cartoon from JB's first post, and with the 'serifed' letter 'i's being shorthand for 'capitalised' caps, IT JUST READS LIKE SPIDER-MAN IS SHOUTING EVERYTHING, WHICH IS PRETTY DISCONCERTING TO READ.
Edited by Rick Shepherd on 23 July 2012 at 2:06pm
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 87181
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| Posted: 23 July 2012 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | 9
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With all that in mind, reading the Spider-Man cartoon from JB's first post, and with the 'serifed' letter 'i's being shorthand for 'capitalised' caps, IT JUST READS LIKE SPIDER-MAN IS SHOUTING EVERYTHING, WHICH IS PRETTY DISCONCERTING TO READ.•• I've seen some online wonks make that same complaint about proper comicbook lettering. Mostly in defense of Marvel's stupid mixed-case fiasco. "Well, you know, the New York Times isn't printed in all caps!" No it's not. And it doesn't have comics, either!
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Carmen Bernardo Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 08 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2726
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| Posted: 24 July 2012 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 10
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I think the pain of seeing that serifed "I" on every other comic font lettering will never stop. If I were an editor, I'd have a reply for every letterer whose only resource was the Photoshop text editor: W.H.M? THINK!
(W.H.M. here stands for "What the Hell's the Matter?" It was used by a racing team owner for one of his drivers back in the rough-and-tumble old days of NASCAR, when said driver would constantly run the car to ruins trying to get in front. Needless to say, we don't have bosses like that anywhere these days, it seems.)
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 87181
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| Posted: 24 July 2012 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 11
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The sad fact is, in the last thirty or forty years we have seen a slow departure of the People Who Knew How to Do It, and a slow in-seeping of the People Who Grew Up Reading Comics But Didn't Pay Attention.I consider myself lucky to have come into The Biz when many of the old hands were still in charge. (Taught how to draw Spider-Man's webbing by John Romita Sr. Ha!!) Even with that, I will admit it took me quite a long time to Get the Hang of It. But a lot of the people who have come in after me don't even WANT to get the hang of it. They have watched a long of Japanese anime, and read a few comics, and they think they've got it nailed. Storytelling? What's that? Coloring? Lots of special effects, right? Lettering --- well, CAPS LOCK and you're off!
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Chris Geary Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 January 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1146
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| Posted: 25 July 2012 at 4:04am | IP Logged | 12
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I'm extremely grateful to have been taught Lettering, and Colouring, in the 'Old Fashioned' way as I'm sure that it keeps me in check. I wasn't particularly good at either, and love that I can now do it on a computer, but at least I know when I'm doing something wrong.
I even 'rule' the pages in Illustrator so that it mimics the process of hand lettering. My Colouring tends to lean towards flats, again to make it look like it used to. (or is that '...supposed to'?)
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Joe Martino Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 721
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| Posted: 25 July 2012 at 2:23pm | IP Logged | 13
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This is a big pet peeve for me too. And many letterers just don't care enough to fix it.
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Carmen Bernardo Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 08 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2726
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| Posted: 25 July 2012 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 14
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I'll have to confess to being one of those who watched the Japanese animated serials and thought of ways to apply some of that to American superhero comics. Perhaps for the better, I never did get to do what Joe Madrureira would soon be doing, but instead opted for scaling it back a little bit to let the original American influences shine through more, and avoided the silly cartooning tropes that Mad and others were now bringing in. These were the guys who were taking so many of the familiar characters off-model, as it has turned out. Perhaps the biggest beef that I have about today's excuse for "storytelling" is that they're convinced somehow that what artists like Katsuhiro Otomo in Akira and Kenichi Sonoda in Gunsmith Cats were doing could be transmitted to a monthly comicbook about superheroes. It can't. The publishing schedules and target audiences are far different. You could stretch out a sequence of action for several pages in a Japanese comic because it was being published in weekly or bi-weekly installments. The audiences for American comics expect the action to take up only one page at most, with the conflict being wrapped up by the issue's end. At 22 pages a pop, you can't have half that issue being taken up by Captain America flinging his shield at the Red Skull (my exaggeration).
Edited by Carmen Bernardo on 25 July 2012 at 5:17pm
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