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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 16 October 2012 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 1
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I've been re-reading some BATMAN comics from the late 1980s and my impression remains that the "reboot/revamp" was not as well-planned as the one in SUPERMAN.
I know MAN OF STEEL was a complete reboot and BATMAN YEAR ONE was a "retelling" of the origin but the following issues, as written by Max Allan Collins, seemed in a different universe from Frank Miller's version of the character. It was as if Cary Bates wrote Superman write after MAN OF STEEL.
Editor Denny O'Neil also had major problems maintaining creative teams on BATMAN, which in retrospective seems a shock for a major character. Things were better in DETECTIVE with the Mike W. Barr and Alan Davis run (however, again, seeming to take place in a different world from the Frank Miller version of Batman -- there was lots of "old chums" and so forth), which later became the Grant/Wagner/Breyfogle run, one of my favorites.
Jim Starlin replaced Max Allan Collins and wrote a more Miller-like Batman (arguably too grim and gritty for the character). He was joined by Jim Aparo. I discovered Aparo through his late '80s BATMAN run (BATMAN 414 was my first Aparo comic) and enjoyed his art work; however, again in retrospect, it was like Curt Swan returning to SUPERMAN less than a year after MAN OF STEEL.
Does anyone know what the story was for BATMAN during this period? It felt all over the map -- and the almost apologetic tone about the changing creative teams in the letters page added to this impression.
Again in contrast -- and not to diminish any stress John Byrne and others might have experienced on the SUPERMAN titles -- the SUPERMAN revamp felt streamlined and far more sure-footed.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132279
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| Posted: 16 October 2012 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | 2
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I have often referred to YEAR ONE as a "stealth reboot".When MAN OF STEEL was announced, fans all over the place went absolutely ballistic. Reboot Superman?? How dare they!! But YEAR ONE was announced not as a reboot, but a "retelling". Frank's mandate was to gather all the Batman "stuff" together and shuffle it into an appropriate post-CRISIS package. Fans were orgasmic in their anticipation. Funny thing, when the book started to come out and it was obvious Frank had NOT done his homework, and was simply reinventing the characters in his own image, I heard nary a complaint. I wondered at the time if Bat-fans were somehow less anal than Super-fans? Seemed like it would be the other way 'round.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 16 October 2012 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 3
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Personal taste greatly influences this observation but I have always believed that the couple of years prior to MAN OF STEEL were not a great time for SUPERMAN. The stories felt aimless, treading water. However, I rather enjoyed the years prior to DARK KNIGHT/YEAR ONE in BATMAN/DETECTIVE -- arguably more so than the work immediately after it.
I say this because that is decidedly not have most Batman fans remember it. It will forever frustrate me when some fans claim that Miller "rescued" Batman from Adam West campiness (when any TV-show influence lasted for about as long as that show was popular)... or restored the series to the heights of the (in their mind) lengthy O'Neil/Adams run.
Batman was a serious, dark knight detective (just not a psycho ninja) pretty consistently during the '70s and early '80s.
Meanwhile, there's this idea that Superman didn't need fixing. Mark Waid endorsed that notion. And the power of the fans and fans turned pros is why YEAR ONE and THE KILLING JOKE will remain inviolable. Just notice the new 52 in which those stories are somehow "still" in continuity, whereas Superman is started anew.
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Thomas Moudry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5060
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| Posted: 16 October 2012 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | 4
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Late '70s/early '80s Batman--prior to Year One--is one my favorite eras for
the character. Loved all that stuff! Didn't so much like Year One in terms of
story, but loved Mazzucchelli's artwork.
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Thomas Moudry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5060
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| Posted: 16 October 2012 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | 5
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Late '70s/early '80s Superman--prior to Man of Steel, well, it all seemed so
disconnected from just about everything. Marv Wolfman and Gil Kane told
some great stories in Action Comics, but there was a lot of banality at that
time. My favorite Superman title prior to Man of Steel was DC Comics
Presents; I liked the version of Superman who showed up in that series--
which was disconnected from everything, too.
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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 17 October 2012 at 12:28am | IP Logged | 6
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Things were better in DETECTIVE with the Mike W. Barr and Alan
Davis run (however, again, seeming to take place in a different world
from the Frank Miller version of Batman -- there was lots of "old
chums" and so forth),...
====
Despite having Davis' artwork for the Who's Who Update, I saw the
Barr/Davis run on Detective as the last stories of the Pre-Crisis
Batman. I can't think of a better group to send the character out with.
Although I have to give Jim Aparo credit for keeping Batman
respectable up to the Bane/Nightfall storyline. Batman hasn't been the
same since.
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James Revilla
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2266
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| Posted: 17 October 2012 at 2:24am | IP Logged | 7
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I loved Dark Knight and liked Year One but I remember being blown away by MOS. The dark and gritty mood seemed a cool trend, but even at the time I remember thinking I am glad all comics are not like that. MOS was such a...such an actual comic book that I was overjoyed. It hit every button I wanted in a book at the time and even today. I found some back copies and took them to a friend's nephews who are not obsessed with super heroes but have not read comics yet and I gave them MOS and the first few issues of Byrne's Superman. I like to think i am influencing them to like "real" comic books.
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Scott Morrissey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 17 October 2012 at 5:05am | IP Logged | 8
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I enjoyed the DC comics from this period. The reboot on Batman was 'soft' compared to Superman. You had the Year One story. Was this the first mini series within a series? But straight after you had the revamp of Jason Todd. Which didn't do the character any favours as the fans voted to kill him within two years. Liked the Wagner and Grant stories in both Batman and Detective. Wasn't such a bad era for Batman at all. Although in the scheme of things most stories could have taken place in the pre-Crisis era. The changes to me seemed mostly cosmetic. Superman went back to basics. However more of the old pre-crisis elements returned in the years that followed. Supergirl, Superboy, Kyrpto etc. My vote for the best post Crisis relaunch would be Wonder Woman. Loved the work of George Perez on that title and it's probably my favourite work of his.
The New 52 relaunch/reboot seems very similar in regards to Superman and Batman. Superman had the complete reboot. While Batman retained a lot from post crisis era. Not sure what this says about Batman and relaunches/reboots.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 17 October 2012 at 5:09am | IP Logged | 9
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The New 52 relaunch/reboot seems very similar in regards to Superman and Batman. Superman had the complete reboot. While Batman retained a lot from post crisis era. Not sure what this says about Batman and relaunches/reboots.•• It says DC owns Batman but doesn't own Superman.
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Aaron Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
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| Posted: 17 October 2012 at 5:29am | IP Logged | 10
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Before MAN OF STEEL came out, I was strictly a Marvel reader, mostly because a 10 year old kid can only afford a limited number of comics per month. But I followed JB over to DC. It wasn't until a couple years later when the Batman movie craze hit that I began to read more Batman comics, including the current issues and also backtracking and discovering Miller's Year One and DKR. Because of the order in which I was exposed to the characters, JB's versions of both Superman and Batman (as portrayed in MOS#3) are the versions that defined the characters for me. Batman became my favorite of the two characters as time went on and different creative teams worked on each of them, but my first real exposure to both of them in comics form came in the same series, so JB's versions are the ones that made me a fan of both those heroes.
Edited by Aaron Smith on 17 October 2012 at 5:29am
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 17 October 2012 at 7:10am | IP Logged | 11
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However, I rather enjoyed the years prior to DARK KNIGHT/YEAR ONE
The Conway/Newton era remains one of my absolute favorites; Moench following didn't really work for me, his writing style felt clunky and a bit dull.
At the time, the Batman 'stealth reboot' did seem chaotic, what with the string of 'fill-in' issues. Maybe they had creative teams lined up for long term that just didn't pan out for whatever reason.
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4721
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| Posted: 17 October 2012 at 8:06am | IP Logged | 12
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I had no problem with SUPERMAN being rebooted; especially with JB involved... i always felt he needed it much more than BATMAN.The creative teams did a great job on BATMAN leading up to YEAR ONE and then things got out of hand. BTW, my favorite era was also Conway/Newton but also loved Englehart/Rogers on Detective Comics. Lots of top notch talent where SUPERMAN really on had a few.
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Topic Closed)
