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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | 1  

Nope - it's as if there's a general shift in the universe, where being an impulsive jerk suddenly becomes the Starfleet 'industry standard', and enough to get him a full Captaincy, when nary a day before, such behaviour was enough to get Cadet Kirk suspended.

***

That huge instant promotion was my biggest complaint (among many) about that movie. No matter how Kirk is portrayed in the sequel and however many films come after that in the series (not that I'll be seeing them), I can never see nuKirk as a true captain, an officer who EARNED his rank and responsibilities the way the real Kirk did in TOS.

Sure, James Kirk was young for a starship captain, if the ages of Ron Tracy and Matt Decker are any indication, and his career may have been accelerated by whatever he did as a younger officer, but a jump from cadet to captain pushes things into the realm of parody!  
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 3:18pm | IP Logged | 2  

AARON: Sure, James Kirk was young for a starship captain, if the ages of Ron Tracy and Matt Decker are any indication, and his career may have been accelerated by whatever he did as a younger officer, but a jump from cadet to captain pushes things into the realm of parody!   

SER: Agreed. That's why NuKirk bears no resemblance to the James Kirk I know. As a geeky kid watching STAR TREK, Kirk was sort of the "reward" for being a geek: You studied hard -- like the "walking pile of books" Kirk, you worked hard (I imagine a Kirk excelling in his previous positions as Ensign, Lt, and Commander) and you could wind up captain of the Enterprise.

Chris Pine's Kirk is already the "cool, hip" kid you're not. And no matter how hard you work, his innate coolness and hipness will see him to his rightful place as your boss.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | 3  

I kinda understand both of these perceptions.  I think TOS Kirk would have gotten into the same bar fight as NuTrek Kirk.  Personally?  I think it's a pretty great scene.

+++++++++++

That's the thing--NuTREK has a number of great little scenes, but they aren't even close to feeling like TOS.

I can't quite see Kirk getting into that fight. And, young TOS Kirk was a stack of books with legs, remember.

 

This sounds more like Han Solo to me than a young Jim Kirk:

"CUPCAKE": This townie isn't bothering you, right?
UHURA: Oh, beyond belief. But it's nothing I can't handle.
KIRK: You could handle me, if that's an invitation.
CUPCAKE: Hey! You better mind your manners.
KIRK: Oh, relax cupcake, it was a joke.
(Kirk puts his arm on "Cupcake" as the officer then gets belligerent)
CUPCAKE: Hey, farmboy, maybe you can't count, but there are four of us and one of you.
KIRK: Well, some more guys and then it'll be an even fight. 

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | 4  

That huge instant promotion was my biggest complaint (among many) about that movie. No matter how Kirk is portrayed in the sequel and however many films come after that in the series (not that I'll be seeing them), I can never see nuKirk as a true captain, an officer who EARNED his rank and responsibilities the way the real Kirk did in TOS.
++++++++++

I've gotten into a habit of doing a Madea impression for my friends--"You're a Captain now!"

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 5  

I can't read that scene as anyone recognizable, Kirk least of all. That guy's just a jerk. "You could handle me..." Really? That sounded like Kirk to anyone? I get that we're getting rid of the backstory that previously defined who the character was and what made him the man we admire today. "Serious? Serious?? I'll make a confession, Bones. I was downright grim. Which delighted Finnegan to no end..."

There is likely no Finnegan character in the film since there would be no clear dividing line between that guy and our new "hero." Here, we simply start out with a brainy, cocksure wiseguy who's got all the answers and along the way try to convince the audience that he needs to learn to temper all that with judgement or some sort of interest in the common good, although from the writers' point of view, he never makes a false step along the way. He's a born hero, with the luck of the angels on his side. All that's needed for Right to succeed and Goodness to prevail is for all of these stick-up-their-butt nobodies to see how cool he is and give him a ship. Which, in the end, they do. Problemo sol-Ved!

One aspect of the Star Wars rip-off formula that I hadn't tumbled to until this thread is that Scotty as the wacky comedy relief is Abrams' Threepio complete with a little alien-speaking buddy only he can speak to directly and understand. Scotty in the waterpipe and Threepio in the Battle-Droid factory... Funny ol' world, innit?

Added: Seriously?? I wasted my 4000th post on this nonsense? (Sighs...) Really, I have GOT to start watching that post counter more closely... (shakes head sadly...)



Edited by Brian Hague on 13 January 2013 at 7:10pm
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Rick Senger
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 6  

You can't be a fan of both TOS and NuTrek if you think the Spock presented in both are similar beyond the superficial.  From the transporter scene with Uhuru near the end, the one that galls me the most, to the melodramatic way in which he nearly beats Kirk to death, that's no Spock I've ever seen.
*****
Boy do I not like the first clause of your sentence.  The Uhura scene is the worst miscalculation of the entire first movie for me.  It's cringe-inducing.  But given that blunder, I thought Quinto did a creditable job of conveying a lot more Spock than I expected, and overall did well with the role.  Nimoy agrees.  Quinto plays Spock too haughty and huffy for my taste.  However, he not only looks like a young Spock, for my money he actually improves on the vibe of the young Spock seen in TOS in "The Menagerie."  You know, the Spock who excitedly yells "DEFLECTORS AT FULL INTENSITYY!! and "THE WOMEN!!!" and who touches the wailing plants on the surface of Talos IV and breaks into a broad grin?  What's the difference in early TOS?  Well, besides Spock not being entirely figured out by either Nimoy or the writers yet, he's YOUNGER.  He lacks the confidence and maturity of later Spock, but shouldn't he?

So there are different Spocks in TOS.  There's the immature one in "The Menagerie." There's Spock's badly miscalculated first command in "Galileo 7."  Again, one could argue that's simply a younger Spock maturing and figuring out who he is and how to handle command.  In the months and years that follow, he develops into the definitive Spock.

Is Quinto the definitive version?  Nope.  But I would argue that notwithstanding the horrible Uhura angle, the Quinto Spock is not so unlike the early, young, immature Spock we know.  It's easy to pick nits, but overall I enjoyed his performance.

You can disagree but you don't get to tell me that I'm can't be a fan of both TOS and NuTrek for finding nuSpock credible.  That would be like me telling you that you are so wrapped up in TOS trivia and perfect fidelity that you can't appreciate a fun, entertaining, reasonably faithful first reboot effort because you're blinded by minutiae. That would be insulting and presumptuous though, so I'm not saying that. 

I disliked nuKirk a lot more than I disliked nuSpock.  I liked nuMcCoy.  nUhura was probably farther off model than any of them for me. Way too uppity and controlling.  I didn't love the JJ Abrams movie but I did like it more than some of the original TOS movies and most of the TNG movies.  Does that mean I'm not a "true" fan or I'm somehow "ignorant" of true Trekdom?  I don't like the implication that I am.  We can all appreciate / dislike different things in the movies (and series) yet still all be "true" fans. 
 
Part of the enjoyment of these new movies for me is to see the reimagining of characters and objects.  These guys are years younger than those we saw in TOS and they're shaped by a different timeline whose divergences will increase more the farther we get from the original change event.  The producers are saying this upfront.  They aren't meant to be the same.
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Rick Senger
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Posted: 13 January 2013 at 11:43pm | IP Logged | 7  

(I imagine a Kirk excelling in his previous positions as Ensign, Lt, and Commander) and you could wind up captain of the Enterprise.

Chris Pine's Kirk is already the "cool, hip" kid you're not. And no matter how hard you work, his innate coolness and hipness will see him to his rightful place as your boss.
****
Agreed.  I get that nuKirk had a different childhood from TOS Kirk, but it was a mistake to change him from the "positively grim" square who blossomed into a charismatic Captain after years of hard work into this chip-on-his shoulder lothario delinquent with more swagger and bluff than substance or dedication.  TOS Kirk was into "cowboy diplomacy" but he was also highly moral, humble and loyal.  nuKirk seems more like a bright opportunist with questionable character.  His Captain promotion was not plausible and not close to being earned.

The sequel appears to attempt to address some of this with the stern disapproving speech from Pike to Kirk about his overconfidence, but it seems like lip service.  For nuKirk to be recognizable, he's going to have to learn a lot more about hard work and character than I think the movie producers want to show us. 
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 14 January 2013 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 8  

 Rick Senger wrote:
You can disagree but you don't get to tell me that I'm can't be a fan of both TOS and NuTrek for finding nuSpock credible.  That would be like me telling you that you are so wrapped up in TOS trivia and perfect fidelity that you can't appreciate a fun, entertaining, reasonably faithful first reboot effort because you're blinded by minutiae. That would be insulting and presumptuous though, so I'm not saying that.  

But you just did, didn't you?  

In any event, I disagree that Quinto did a credible job as Spock.  As others have said in this thread and as was discussed when the film originally came out, I think he hit the broad strokes without getting the character underneath.  I think there's an undercurrent of rage, evident well before Vulcan was destroyed, that is just at the surface that doesn't play well for me at all.  His performance feels all manners and ticks to me.

As to the Uhuru scene, both of them actually (in the turbolift and on the transporter), that's not minutia to me.  That's not simply a misstep or miscalculation.  That informs the character to a large degree and is so out-of-character that they, in turn, colored the entire performance for me.  I can't simply chalk them up to a mistake and move on.  If you can, hey, more power to you.  Personally, I think those scenes are indicative of the Spock we'll come to see in future films and I think that's a shame.

Finally, on the point about Nimoy endorsing Quinto.  I love Nimoy.  I really do.  I give his opinion a ton of weight, but I also take it with a grain of salt.  I never automatically discount my own opinion simply because someone closer to the material has a different opinion.  We've seen many times authors, actors, directors endorse and gush over remakes of their work.  Most recently, the author of the JACK REACHER novels gushed over the casting of Tom Cruise despite him looking nothing like the character described in his series of novels, a character that people have grown to love and enjoy.  Flip it around: if Shatner had said that Chris Pine nailed Kirk, would your opinion of Pine's performance in NuTrek suddenly do a 180?  Mine wouldn't. 
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Rick Senger
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Posted: 14 January 2013 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | 9  

But you just did, didn't you? 
****
Quite the opposite.  I was suggesting that it's not fair to attach baggage to an opinion that has nothing to do with the opinion.  I was saying that just like it's not in my purview to say your rejection of nuTrek is invalid because you're too big a fan of TOS, too wrapped up in minutiae, to appreciate what was a decent attempt, it's not in your purview to say that anyone who thinks young Spock in nuTrek was reasonable interpretation of young Spock in TOS can't be a fan of TOS.  I do and I am.  And I would bet I've seen all 79 episodes more times than you have.  (Maybe not The Empath.)

I agree that the Uhura relationship is a tragic misstep.  I hope they find  a way to move on from it, though they may not.  But it doesn't negate what was a fun romp and a clever way to make new Trek possible.  Trek wasn't always cerebral socio-political message, nor was it always "A Piece of the Action."  This movie wasn't a masterpiece and I disagree strongly with some of the decisions in it, but it was far from a piece of garbage and people like myself who hold with that view should not be made to feel they aren't "real" fans of TOS. 
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 14 January 2013 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 10  

I'm not "making" you feel anything, Rick.  If you don't feel that way, then I've forced you to do nothing.  You're completely happy in your opinion as I am in mine.  If what I believe is at odds with what you do, then we are simply at an impasse. 
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Rick Senger
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Posted: 14 January 2013 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 11  

I guess your appointment to Admiral Of Deciding Who Gets To Be A Fan of TOS and Who Doesn't As a Statement of Fact must have been decided by the same group who put thru nuKirk's appointment to Captain. 
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 14 January 2013 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 12  

Bwahahahahaha...

Not.
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