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Topic: STAR TREK: NEW VISIONS - Origins and Updates Post ReplyPost New Topic
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paul naring
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 3:25am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

...with some panels feeling a bit rushed...

•••

Care to define that?

******

Not sure if I want to JB as they're really minor and the experience of reading it was, after all most enjoyable. I'd have to sit here for about twenty odd minutes to list all my favourite parts of the story and as I have to prepare for an interview today I can't do that ( so you ask what am I doing here now? I couldn't resist).

BUT... since you asked, from one artist to another and with respect, the end of page 35 and beginning of page 36 didn't sit well with me, too cramped, hard to work out what was happening. why the little pic of the enterprise in P16, wasn't needed.  However P8 p3 was fantastic - simple, effective, was that one shot or a montage? The scenes of the klingon ship interior - superb.

( JB back in '88 I used you as my subject for my thesis at art college. I took photos of your comic work on slide film ( in the days when we actually used slide film!) for projector and if you've never tried it please do. My talk was a success. The class was captured. the art looked stunning on the screen. Had to slip that in, sorry its not relevant)



Edited by paul naring on 20 May 2014 at 3:43am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 5:51am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

... the end of page 35 and beginning of page 36 didn't sit well with me, too cramped, hard to work out what was happening.

••

For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that to be true, How does this qualify as "rushed?" In what SENSE are you using that word?

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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 6:22am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I love how both these stories (so far) have extrapolated logically from the ends of some great episodes. That's what I like about a company-owned JB story: The additions are always logical and fit what they were built on.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 7:28am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

That's what I like about a company-owned JB story: The additions are always logical and fit what they were built on.

••

I, for one, have never understood why anyone would want to do a "sequel" that completely undoes the original story. As I have said many a time, there is a vast difference, as I see it, between "things are not as they seem" and "everything you know is a lie." My own preference, obviously, is for the former.

(Recently I learned of a TREK novel which purported to be a "sequel" yet took turns with the story that required pretty much everyone in the original episode to have been WRONG -- including one character who could not be wrong by definition! What's the sense in that??)

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Certain episodes, like "Space Seed", "Mirror, Mirror", etc. are logical
candidates for sequels, since they left loose ends to be explored.

To use a recently-discussed example, an episode like "Who Mourns For
Adonais?" does NOT lend itself well to a sequel. While bringing back Michael Forest as Apollo lends some credibility to a fan-production like STAR TREK CONTINUES, it really only serves to undercut what was,
originally, a satisfying done-in-one.


Sure, the original story still exists, and can still be viewed as a self-
contained entity, but the very existence of an unnecessary sequel kinda
taints the memory of the original.

I chalk it up to lazy writing. It's easier to take another writer's work and
say "everything you know is wrong" than it is to play by the rules and be
creative.

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 20 May 2014 at 8:13am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

As I have observed on many an occasion, there's literally not a story ever been written that could not be followed up with a "sequel." No matter how complete and satisfying the conclusion might be, there is always going to be someone who can come along and ask "But what happened next?"

Unfortunately, as we have seen so many times (STAR WARS, PLANET OF THE APES, THE MATRIX, ROBOCOP, etc, etc) in order to get to that "next" part, writers often have to overturn much of what was set up in the original. (STAR WARS actually TOLD us in the opening crawl that a rebel victory would mean the END of the empire! That was the first thing Lucas threw out the window when he made his "sequel.")

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 9:24am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Watching "By Any Other Name", last night, I found myself thinking
about the potential for a follow-up. The Kelvans and their backstory are
interesting, after all.

Of course, I then got to thinking about how a writer would quickly have
to start breaking the rules in order to tell a sequel. In theory, we'd have
to jump ahead centuries to see how the Federation's peace offer is
received by the Kelvan Empire. That's a big hurdle to begin with, if you
want to play with any of the established TREK characters, and not set
the story centuries after any of the TV series.

That aside, I could easily see someone writing a story where the
Kelvans reject the peace offer and launch an all-out war, or where it is
revealed that Rojan was only feigning cooperation with Kirk at the end.

Authorial intent does--or should--play a role in considering sequels, I
think. "By Any Other Name" ends on an upbeat note. We're essentially
told that Rojan's party will live on the planet that they landed on, and
that a peace offer will be sent to Andromeda. Since this was a done-in-
one story, those bits of information from the writer tell the audience
what will happen after the show is over.


Same with "Mirror, Mirror". All of the pieces are set-up for Mirror-Spock
to bring positive change to his galaxy, and we're left to assume that he
WILL, since the episode is a one-off, and there won't be a follow-up
story.

...and then DS9 DID a follow-up, which revealed that Kirk made a big
mistake, because Mirror-Spock's efforts weakened the Empire enough
to allow it to be overtaken by a Klingon-Cardassian alliance.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

...and then DS9 DID a follow-up, which revealed that Kirk made a big mistake, because Mirror-Spock's efforts weakened the Empire enough to allow it to be overtaken by a Klingon-Cardassian alliance.

••

One of my greatest frustrations working with Chris Claremont was that his follow-up stories would almost invariably begin with the X-Men only having appeared to win, in the previous outing, but actually having failed. ("Days of Future Past," anyone?)

This is not unique to Chris by any means. SO many writers begin their "sequels" by upsetting some important element of the original. Truth to tell, I've done it a few times myself, during the long learning process. Most of those times, I HOPED what I produced was a better story than the original. Often, tho, I saw my sequel gutted by a later writer! The cycle is unending.

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

My least favorite set-up for a sequel is "Kirk Screwed Up." It was a commonplace trope in fan fiction throughout the 70's, especially as fans flocked around David Gerrold's observation that one cannot credibly solve the problems of a society in an hour. You can't do it within your own, and you certainly can't do it for one you've only just encountered. Star Trek's essential premise was, in the eyes of Gerrold and far too many fans, innately ridiculous. Good television, maybe, but bad policy.

Not that the fans felt they couldn't fix all those "broken, unworkable" stories. They could re-examine them. Fill in those blanks Kirk and the original screenwriters missed. Show that Kirk's little band-aid solutions were just as flimsy as they looked, but they could restore dramatic credibility to the program by writing what must have "really" happened after the Enterprise left orbit. They could save Star Trek from it's most insidious, relentless enemy... Itself!

Of course, since so few of them could actually write, not much came of these efforts. The Trek comics would sometimes play with these premises. There's a particularly lousy follow-up to "Miri" in which we learn that McCoy Screwed Up, testing his miracle cure on humans (and a Vulcan.) Miri and her friends, after all, weren't human. Of course, stupid Starfleet insisted on inoculating the kids after the Enterprise left orbit. All the Onlies died! Died! McCoy was so stupid... Only Jahn was left, and he was going to kill everyone who killed Miri. The image of a serial killer stalking our heroes through the halls of the Enterprise singing "Nahhh Nah NahNahNah..." was just too potent for the writer to resist, I guess...

Original intent? Authorial considerations? Ha! If they wanted any respect, they shouldn't have written something so stupid as the original "Miri" episode to begin with! By the way, where's my check for what I did, based entirely upon a work that I just threw under the bus?*

The disdain for the original series felt by large portions of the writing staffs on the Trek spin-offs is well-known. Silly, candy-colored moralizing and gunboat diplomacy in action... Real humanists wouldn't act that way. They'd admit the problems are too big. They'd leave the people to solve it themselves. They'd allow the planet of druggies to go cold squab because, well, hey. they're druggies. That's Who They Are. We Must Respect That. Ensign, plot a course away from the problems of these people... It's not up to us to do anything about them...

Kirk, when he made his little, off-the-cuff speech about overthrowing the Empire, clearly had no idea what sort of a universe the Mirror-Spock lived in. He didn't even know there was a Bajor or a Cardassia! He didn't know about wormholes or Changelings or anything that REALLY matters! But hey, yeah, go change the world, Spock, with a song in your heart and a disintegrator machine in my cabin. Kirk! Whatta moron! Had to take that whole bit down a peg. I mean, some people actually LIKE that dumb drivel of an ending! Not me, of course. I mean less intelligent people. By the way, where's my check for the work I'm doing based on this idiocy?

I truly loathe the Extended Mirror Universe of DS9. Yes, the Intendant's a fun character, but the entire premise is such a fannish gimme. They go out of their way to tell us that Kirk's is the most hated name in all the cosmos in the Mirror Universe because it was he who talked Spock into going all MLK and dooming the human race to eternal slavery... Really? Kirk's name is the most hated? Not Spock's? He WAS the guy after all who took down the Terran Empire, leaving its people utterly defenseless, right? How does anyone even know that he did it based on Kirk's encouragement? Marlene Moreau rat Kirk out? Spock break down under Mind-Sifting or something? Even if he did for some reason tell everyone about Kirk's speech, why blame Kirk for what Spock did? Spock is still the one who did it.

Well, because we have a point to make, of course. That point is, Kirk Sucks.

* See also: the works of Gregory Maguire.


Edited by Brian Hague on 20 May 2014 at 5:49pm
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Brian: That point is, Kirk Sucks.

**

All post TOS Trek in a nutshell.
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Bill Mimbu
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

And we have the USS Defiant from "The Tholian Web" ending up in Mirror-Archer's timeline, which somehow doesn't really mess up Mirror-Kirk's history in "Mirror, Mirror"...

I figure something like that would make a bigger change to Trek technology than Nero blowing up the USS Kelvin (or support what JB said about Archer and crew being somehow wiped from continuity by the time TOS occurs).

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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Kirk, when he made his little, off-the-cuff speech about overthrowing the Empire, clearly had no idea what sort of a universe the Mirror-Spock lived in. He didn't even know there was a Bajor or a Cardassia! He didn't know about wormholes or Changelings or anything that REALLY matters! But hey, yeah, go change the world, Spock, with a song in your heart and a disintegrator machine in my cabin. Kirk! Whatta moron! Had to take that whole bit down a peg. I mean, some people actually LIKE that dumb drivel of an ending! Not me, of course. I mean less intelligent people. By the way, where's my check for the work I'm doing based on this idiocy?

••

It's interesting that turning the Empire into a benevolent government caused it to be invaded and conquered, when such had never happened to the Federation, supposedly the poster child for benevolent governments.

Perhaps one of these revisionist whiz kids (in the sense of pissing on everything) needs to do a story that "examines" the REAL structure of the Federation, revealing it as a ruthless fascist state that would have made Hitler cringe.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 20 May 2014 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I figure something like that would make a bigger change to Trek technology than Nero blowing up the USS Kelvin (or support what JB said about Archer and crew being somehow wiped from continuity by the time TOS occurs).

••

The Defiant in the Mirror-verse creates the ultimate time paradox. It's a variant on the old question about the time traveller who goes to the Ford museum, steals Henry Ford's original plans for the Model T, then goes back and gives HF those plans. So, who invented the Model T?

If a Constitution Class starship appears in the Mirror-verse WHOLE, where did the technology originate? In our Universe? Okay -- but how did we get it, unless a Constitution Class starship somehow appeared HERE, too??

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Francesco Consoli
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Posted: 21 May 2014 at 5:43am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

In the June Previews for August Release:


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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 May 2014 at 6:42am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

That's the issue with the short backup story, originally intended for the trade paperback. Just the other day I made a small modification to the cover to reflect this, but I'll let you all see that when the issue comes out!

Also, please note that the title of the lead story is "Time's Echo," as it says on the cover, not "Core." That latter title was what I used on the files for quick and easy identification. Strange punctuation in that descriptive copy, too!!

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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 21 May 2014 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 16 post reply


The cover to issue #2 is featured at the end of issue #1, and we also get a bonus of seeing the title page -- a wonderful shot of the Enterprise approaching Deep Space Monitor Station 18.

The Enterprise looks wonderful in your books, JB. That flaming ship cover is really amazing! 



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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 21 May 2014 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Awesome!
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Michael Arndt
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Posted: 21 May 2014 at 8:55am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Great cover.
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 21 May 2014 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply


Okay, best cover yet!!!

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 21 May 2014 at 11:04pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Looking again at the cover, tonight, I found myself wondering which
episode that image of Kirk came from, since it didn't ring a bell.

By incredible coincidence, I then watched "The Ultimate Computer"
(since I'm rewatching the series, one episode per night) and noticed the
shot where that very image of Kirk on the cover came from. Huh!

Oh, and I finally received the first issue of NEW VISIONS! I'll chime in
after I get a chance to read it.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 22 May 2014 at 1:07am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

...okay.


That was awesome!


From what I've seen, this has mostly been getting great reviews. It
would be easy to quibble, of course (there are a few typos, and some of
the composite images are less convincing than others), but this book is
so FUN, and so dripping with pure love and enthusiasm for the
material, that picking at minor gaffs would be pointless. I'm glad to see
that the reviews are ignoring the easy potshots that would come
naturally with a Frankenstein's monster of a book like this.

On a purely storytelling level, the book is excellent. You may have to
occasionally squint a bit to overlook the Photoshopped nature of the
project, but the meticulous composite work does a crackerjack job of
telling the story.

So much to love, here. So many little details, cameos, and subtle
references (as opposed to the ham-fisted stuff that so often pervades
TREK literature and fanfic) that make this feel like the real thing.

I'll echo the acclaim for the brilliant, comic book-appropriate adaptation
of the universe flip-flop effect! And I love the subtle details, like the
"Bread and Circuses"-style slave braids, and the hints of other TOS
episodes' events being duplicated in the Mirror universe.


Ridiculously fun. By its very nature, this series may be professional
fanfic, but it's some of the best professional fanfic I've read!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 May 2014 at 4:05am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

So much to love, here. So many little details, cameos, and subtle references (as opposed to the ham-fisted stuff that so often pervades TREK literature and fanfic) that make this feel like the real thing.

••

Glad you finally got to read it, Greg!

One of the hardest parts of this project is fighting against a tendency to do exactly the kinds of things you mention, above. There's a wee imp in my head who hears the voices of the characters, and wants to put familiar phrases into their mouths. And, of course, there is that fannish urge to "footnote" everything, with constant references to previous stories. The latter I allow from time to time, since TOS itself did such references, and people really do mention past experiences -- but the key is to avoid the "cutes." (Like the animated episode with dialog that tried to replay the initial confrontation between Kirk and Harry Mudd from "I, Mudd".)

++++

…the hints of other TOS episodes' events being duplicated in the Mirror universe.

••

That's one place where I could not resist a little "in" reference. Kirk meets M.Kirk, and M.Kirk is reminded of that time the transporter split him into two people. Of course, in the M.verse, it was the "good" Kirk they wanted to get rid of!

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paul naring
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Posted: 22 May 2014 at 7:54am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

... the end of page 35 and beginning of page 36 didn't sit well with me, too cramped, hard to work out what was happening.

••

For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that to be true, How does this qualify as "rushed?" In what SENSE are you using that word?


yeah i wasn't very clear, what i mean was the scene is way too fast to the point of not really being clear as to what is happening. The dialogue seems a bit 'pantomime-y' almost as if to hide the unclarity. M Kirk tells us he's getting into the elevator because its hard to actually see it. It would have been easier on the eyes maybe to use one panel of M Kirk backing into the elevator, gun raised ( and to have had Kirk and Spock land aboard armed with the mini phasers).

As for the next cover. It looks great but I don't like the cut-out images of Kirk, Spock and Mccoy. Better to lose those and just have the image of the Enterprise. We know its about TOS just with that ship on the cover.

The cover to ''The mirror,Cracked'' is graphic genius.

 The cover to ''strange new worlds'' is my least favourite beacuse it looks like it was done with scissors and glue but I understand why you did it. It has a cut and paste look because well, thats how the issue is done. As I said before, my hand hovered over the issue but i took the plunge because a) it looked different inside b) the subject matter and c) it had your name on it.

Maybe on future issues lose the cut-out heads on the cover. 

By the way, the issues my LCS ordered? sold out. 'nuff said.





Edited by paul naring on 22 May 2014 at 7:57am
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 22 May 2014 at 7:56am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

One of the hardest parts of this project is fighting against a tendency to
do exactly the kinds of things you mention, above. There's a wee imp in
my head who hears the voices of the characters, and wants to put
familiar phrases into their mouths. And, of course, there is that fannish
urge to "footnote" everything, with constant references to previous
stories.
++++++++++

The trick, I think, is making references organically, by allowing the
characters to write themselves. You've obviously spent decades
absorbing TREK, which surely makes that a simple task.

For example, Mirror Kirk's reference to Commander Kenner. This is a
reference that makes sense in the context of the scene (since it helps
establish for the reader the nature of a Captain's Woman), but it's also
an internally-consistent reference to "Mirror, Mirror".

So, if you're a casual reader, the reference helps tell the story. If you're
a hardcore fan, it's one of those little details that makes the story feel
"real".


This is obviously a dream project for you. There are a ridiculous
number of subtle-detail photomanipulations and unobtrusive cameo
appearances that didn't NEED to be done. But, they're there, and they
add to the internal consistency and authenticity of the book.

Even the premise--Mirror-Kirk and Kor team up--could seem like bad
fanfic in another writer's hands, but it's done here in such an organic
way that it simply feels like a TOS episode with an unusually-large
budget.

Last year' annual was also great fun, but this new story kicks things up
a few notches!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 May 2014 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

…the scene is way too fast to the point of not really being clear as to what is happening.

••

Again, are you saying what you want to say? How can still pictures on a printed page be "too fast?" They're just sitting there. They don't flash by like a scene in a movie. You can stare at them for hours. (It is, in fact, one of the frustrations of the comicbook form, that nothing can ever be presented quickly. Anything on the page is available for prolonged viewing, and that can sometimes be detrimental to the intent of a scene.)

+++

The cover to ''strange new worlds'' is my least favourite beacuse it looks like it was done with scissors and glue but I understand why you did it. It has a cut and paste look because well, thats how the issue is done.

••

Actually, with Chris Ryall's hearty encouragement, it was intended to evoke the old Gold Key STAR TREK covers.

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