| Author |
|
Manuel Tavares
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 December 2009
Location: Portugal
Posts: 407
|
| Posted: 02 May 2013 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
Until now grading a comic book means to attribute a value on a scale of 1 to 10 basis. This grading is based on the physical condition of the comic book, basically it can be NEW, USED, OLD/BAD SHAPE. The value of a comic book can be also ascribed to its content about the first appearance of a character or group of characters, the first of a genre, the first of its kind, the first creator owned ... …and then we start to get in a new territory which is the literary content. We starting to see on the collector’s market rare copies of pioneer comic book writings about, for instance, more serious stories, mature content, etc. in a time when those stories were rare to none. We have the 1970s O'Neil & Adams team upon their take on Superheroes, and then we get to the 1980s and we get the Alan Moore approach on titles like MIRACLEMAN and WATCHMEN. Like it or not the work of Alan Moore have been praised by many on his take on Superheroes. Some like it some hate it, that’s not the point here. The point is that the literary content attracted attentions from readers and critics. The next natural step would be start "grading" the literary and artistic content of a comic book with natural repercussions in the collector’s market increasing substantially the value of the first prints of the best written and best drawn comic books. Instead of increase in value of the first appearance of POWER GIRL (for instance) why not increase in value the best written comic book story of 2012, or the best drawn?
Edited by Manuel Tavares on 02 May 2013 at 5:11pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6126
|
| Posted: 02 May 2013 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
Logical... Flawlessly logical.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
|
| Posted: 02 May 2013 at 7:48pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
Artistic merit, specifically with mainstream superhero comics, is a surprisingly hard thing to quantify. Artistic merit has always been a secondary concern of Marvel and DC. Another factor is that comics were written for decades in "layers." You can't judge the actual writing of something like Stan & Jack's FF, perhaps the greatest run of all time, and quantify its importance. You have to understand Kirby's artistic and design innovations, how creative he was being by putting it into context with what came before, Stan's then innovative dialog, etc.
Of course there are many critics who feel that, with rare exceptions, the only comic creators worthy of true artistic merit are the great newspaper strip creators and innovators like Kirby, Ditko, Crumb, etc. Most others, regardless of how well their comics are done or how entertaining they are, are seen as hacks who are just earning a paycheck while producing comics featuring characters and concepts that were originally created by masters of the form.
It seems to me that the basis for artistic merit is whether or not a piece of art says something about the human condition. This seems to be the most agreed upon criteria. If it doesn't, it's either seen as fluffy entertainment or a text book. I do agree with this...to a point, but its never fully satisfy me. Even though I agree that this is of paramount importance, I still feel that there are artistic possibilities beyond this dogma.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Manuel Tavares
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 December 2009
Location: Portugal
Posts: 407
|
| Posted: 02 May 2013 at 8:56pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
"You can't judge the actual writing of something like Stan & Jack's FF, perhaps the greatest run of all time, and quantify its importance. You have to understand Kirby's artistic and design innovations, how creative he was being by putting it into context with what came before, Stan's then innovative dialog, etc"Robert White
------------------ Couldn't agree more, Robert.
" the basis for artistic merit is whether or not a piece of art says something about the human condition. [...]there are artistic possibilities beyond this dogma." Robert White ------------------- Agreed! Actually I think there are more artistic possibilities beyond this dogma. But what really interests me about what you said is that it means POSSIBILITIES. The real possibility for comic books to be valued for their artistic and literary content. Which it haven't happened so far.
It's about time though.
I believe there are people on the field with the knowledge to interpret the medium from the artistic and literary perspective, thus to acknowledge it as an art form by its own right therefore valuing it electing its best work.
Edited by Manuel Tavares on 02 May 2013 at 8:57pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Joe Hollon
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13678
|
| Posted: 03 May 2013 at 4:31am | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
Until now grading a comic book means to attribute a value on a scale of 1 to 10 basis.
The next natural step would be start "grading" the literary and artistic content of a comic book with natural repercussions in the collector’s market increasing substantially the value of the first prints of the best written and best drawn comic books.
********
If I'm understanding your post correctly, it seems to me you are talking about two entirely different things: a grade and a value. A comicbook can receive a very high grade for condition but not be worth a dime. On the other hand I saw a single torn out page from ACTION COMICS #1 up for auction about a week ago! That has value because of rarity and supply/demand. The market dictates what increases in value not a grade that a book is (subjectively) given based on content.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132374
|
| Posted: 03 May 2013 at 4:47am | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
Impossible to quantify artistic or literary merit. Too many people with different tastes -- which is how it should be!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
David Ferguson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 6782
|
| Posted: 03 May 2013 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
Values of pages/comics are a mixture of supply and demand and histrical significance. As JB has stated, artistic or literary merit are impossible to quantify due to taste.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16435
|
| Posted: 03 May 2013 at 8:48am | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Manuel wrote:
| ...The next natural step would be start "grading" the literary and artistic content of a comic book with natural repercussions in the collector’s market increasing substantially the value of the first prints of the best written and best drawn comic books... |
|
|
WARNING TO NATHAN GRENO: This post will contain "quotes." ;-)
Comic book values listed in the price guides are based on the average value that a network of dealers have reported as having received for those particular comics.
As David Ferguson notes above, the values are based on supply and demand. The historical significance can have an affect, as he also suggests, but that falls under the "demand" part, as there is a demand because there is historical significance.
And the artwork and especially memorable storylines do create a demand, as well. This, in turn, can cause an increase in what people are willing to pay to acquire those comics, which in turn will raise its value.
In other words, the "best" written and drawn comics, by consensus, already do affect the market value on comic books, as a rule. The "Kree-Skrull War" issues of "The Avengers," for instance, commands more than an average issue of the title from the same period based on both the art (Neal Adams on most of it), and the storyline.
As far as "grading" a storyline or artwork, it is unnecessarily complicated to do so. The price a collector will pay on average is a determination of what the consensus is in the matter of popular opinion on comic books regarding a particular comics value.
Critical evaluation, as opposed to the popular consensus, is different. But say a comic with a great story doesn't command a notable value in a price guide, "grading" the story would not do anything to remedy that, really. At least, not anymore than a review of the comic reaching a mass audience would, that may cause more people to seek out the comic and through normal market forces drive up its value.
Edited by Matt Hawes on 03 May 2013 at 8:50am
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Manuel Tavares
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 December 2009
Location: Portugal
Posts: 407
|
| Posted: 03 May 2013 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
"Impossible to quantify due to taste!"
I agree that when it comes to art is the people's taste that commands. Is only natural. But how is it that there are prizes to attribute to (for instance) the best inker of a comic-book? We have the WILL EISNER COMICS INDUSTRY AWARDS, and many others. And when we talk about literature there are THE NATIONAL BOOK AWARD or THE PULITZER PRIZE?
So this is not just about taste. Somehow we know exactly what is good literature (and comics are also literature). In terms of art we can say when its technically well accomplished, because there are rules and techniques just like about writing. Like cinematography in movies. What is the best cinematography in a movie? Maybe nobody liked that movie because of its photography although received a prize for it because technically it was flawless.
So whats happening in comics is as everybody knows the grading thing and all the business around it.
A comic can be graded as being in perfect condition and being historically worthless, the readers didn't even demanded it.
All I'm saying is that the same way people give value to a comic due to historical significance or because they adapted it into a tv show, people could and should value a comic book due to a technical achievement. Because when they award something it cannot be based on personal taste thus I use the TECHNICAL term.
Edited by Manuel Tavares on 03 May 2013 at 12:32pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16435
|
| Posted: 03 May 2013 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
Manuel, grading a comic for determining the value for which it will sell is akin to noting the damage on a used car and how that damage affects the amount you are willing to pay for that vehicle. The condition is what is graded, not the model of the car, when looking at the damage. A popular model car is not considered to be less damaged because the car is considered a better model than an old jalopy. A dent is still a dent, regardless of which vehicle it is on. A comic with a big crease on it is in the same grade, condition-wise, regardless of its artistic merits.
I suppose the issue at hand is just what you mean by "value" and "grading."
There are industry awards, as you note, as well as countless reviews, blogs, etc., that discuss comics that are said to be examples of excellence in the field of comics. Titles do get recognized regularly in that fashion.
I'm not entirely sure on your point of "... 'grading' the literary and artistic content of a comic book with natural repercussions in the collector’s market increasing substantially the value of the first prints of the best written and best drawn comic books....," especially since the value of comics most regularly take into account the story and the art to begin with. But, as with music, film, and other artistic fields, artistic merit is not always recognized by financial benefit.
If there is a brilliant work of art in comic book form, "grading" it as being a perfect example of such won't in and of itself increase the value. Marketplace values (i.e., the amount of money people will put out to buy a back issue of a particular comic book) are based entirely on supply and demand.
"Sandman" was recognized in its field as being a masterpiece, while "New Mutants" comics by Rob Liefeld were, well, not. BUT, in the late 1980's and early 1990's, the "New Mutants" was more popular and sold more copies as both a new title and as a back issue. And the first appearance of Cable at its zenith commanded a higher back issue value and sold more commonly at that price than "Sandman" #1 or even #8 (1st appearance of the character Death). But that those "Sandman" comics had a pretty notable price increase in the back issue market still showed that quality is sometimes recognized even in the back issue market.
What I am basically saying is that no amount of "grading" a comic on artistic merit would guarantee any shift, or repercussions, as you say, in how much the comics will fetch in the back issue market.
Edited by Matt Hawes on 03 May 2013 at 1:50pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16435
|
| Posted: 03 May 2013 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
Manuel wrote:
| ...why not increase in value the best written comic book story of 2012... |
|
|
I just wanted to comment on this in elaboration of my points above:
In the back issue comic book marketplace, the values are not determined arbitrarily.
As I noted previously, values in price guides are generally determined by sales reports from a network of retailers who send into the price guide's publisher a report of what they sold a comic book for within a specific period of time.
These prices are then averaged and that is the prices you see listed in the price guides. Over the years, with eBay sales, and online sales, there is a new wealth of tracking information to choose from, but most guides, such as "The Overstreet Price Guide" still utilize a network of dealers and retailers.
In this system, it is a combination of the seller setting a price and how much a buyer actually will pay that gives the guide its' information. And that all boils down to supply & demand, period.
Edited to add:
This may all boil down to a discussion on semantics. But you do seem to be saying that artistic quality should dictate the back issue values for comics. That would be nice, but that's not necessarily the way it works.
Edited by Matt Hawes on 03 May 2013 at 1:56pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Manuel Tavares
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 December 2009
Location: Portugal
Posts: 407
|
| Posted: 03 May 2013 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
Thank you, Matt, for making yourself clear on this matter.
I understand your points: It all comes down to Supply & Demand, and that when it comes to grade a comic book it's all about the items condition.
But you also got my point when I say: "that artistic quality should dictate the back issue values for comics." And not only artistic quality, but also literary quality. Although I understand "that's not necessarily the way it works." For me, at least from an idealistic point of view, it should work that way.
Because, what should we prize the most? A crappy story, or a good story? What should be the most sought out kind of comics? The ones which literary content is shallow or those well elaborated in its own genre. Those are the kind of comics that readers should look for in the back issues or even, naturally, in the current issues. The same way that, for instance, a variant cover painted by MILO MANARA for the GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY are so much prized and sought out which dictates its value on the market increasing it ten times the cover price for that particular comic. So, readers are driven by their taste, and on this case their taste matches quality quite a lot, people recognizes good art when they see it as they recognize good literature when they read it.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
|
|
Topic Closed)
