Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
Movies
Byrne Robotics > Movies
Topic: Shane Black’s Doc Savage (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2587
Posted: 27 April 2014 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | 1  

http://screenrant.com/doc-savage-character-plot-details-shad e-black/

Very hopeful for this movie to be good but this quote from Black doesn't sound too good.  It's going to be set in the '30's, he's striving to find the perfect sized actor rather than relying on movie tricks, etc.  So there is a lot to like.  But this worries me:

  wrote:
“So we kept it in the 30s, we beefed up the sort of rationale behind what it would take to be a perfect person and to be trained as such from childhood and how that would scar someone. And what it would take to be a parent who is capable of inflicting that on your kid. But beyond that we’ve also tried to be true to the series, give him the helpers and it’s also reinvigorating it but introducing a whole new brand of people to this is a challenge. It’s been around, it’s been 75 years.”

Why does Doc need to be mentally scarred?  If his dad did things right, then he's the result of good training and is near perfect without being scarred in the process.  


Edited by Andy Mokler on 27 April 2014 at 3:48pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 6235
Posted: 27 April 2014 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 2  

The closest thing to being `mentally scarred' in the pulps
was that he was awkward around women. And that didn't last.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
Posted: 27 April 2014 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | 3  

I hope someone makes a movie about Santa Claus and how mentally scarring it would be to have to keep track of who's naughty and nice. Just think of all the horrific things (murder, pedophilia, etc.) that Santa would be forced to have intimate knowledge of. Plus, he's in the North Pole all year long, so he's got to have a raging case of Seasonal Affective Disorder.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 114423
Posted: 27 April 2014 at 8:13pm | IP Logged | 4  

Why does Doc need to be mentally scarred?

•••

Write what you know?

Seriously, I know nothing of Shane Black, so I cannot speak of him specifically, but so many times I read or hear directors telling us about their "vision" for the characters (which they did not create), and all I can think is Here's another one using the movies he makes as therapy!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
Posted: 28 April 2014 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 5  

Shane Black loves writing traumatized characters--Tony Stark's PTS in IM3, Mel Gibson in LETHAL WEAPON, Bruce Willis in that idiotic football flick, Geena Davis in THE LONG KISS GOODNIGHT.

Edited by Don Zomberg on 28 April 2014 at 7:04am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Bill Guerra
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 March 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 936
Posted: 28 April 2014 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 6  

And an odd number of his films take place at Christmas.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rick Senger
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8244
Posted: 28 April 2014 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 7  

I was initially hopeful but after seeing (and strongly disliking) IM3, which featured all of Black's cutesiness and not much wonder or focus, I am quite concerned. 

"To the world at large, Doc Savage is a strange, mysterious figure of glistening bronze skin and golden eyes. To his amazing co-adventurers - the five greatest brains ever assembled in one group - he is a man of superhuman strength and protean genius, whose life is dedicated to the destruction of evil-doers. To his fans he is the greatest adventure hero of all time, whose fantastic exploits are unequaled for hair-raising thrills, breathtaking escapes and blood-curdling excitement."

Nowhere in there (or the books) do I hear anything about Doc being damaged, angst-ridden and mentally scarred.  He's a man of few words and copious action who lives a life every kid dreams of, full of exotic locales, incredible adventure, cutting edge scientific inquiry and intellectual exploration, fabulous wealth and luxury, the admiration of his peers and the general public, the desire of gorgeous women (who don't really interest him.)  In the later stories he does get more physically vulnerable and injured for a time, but that is a function of age / mileage, not his upbringing.

I recently re-watched Doc Savage - The Man of Bronze which was every bit as horrific as I'd recalled from my one and only viewing in the theater as a kid back in 1975.  While I can't imagine Black's version could possibly be worse than this one, I am close to giving up hope it will be a Doc Savage I recognize or want to see.


Edited by Rick Senger on 28 April 2014 at 11:02am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Ed Love
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2690
Posted: 28 April 2014 at 8:23pm | IP Logged | 8  

Actually, I think there are a few references in some of the later ones where Doc is given to some introspection and thinks that his upbringing has made him a bit of a freak. It's not that he's just awkward around women, but people in general and that his chosen profession of seeking danger and adventure is a bit nuts (though there is that altruistic drive behind it as well, but he recognizes he enjoys the excitement). The thing is though, those are not major themes of the stories or character. It's a few sentences out of 100 or so pages. If he wants to write about a mentally scarred Doc Savage, the character he should be doing is the Avenger. 
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8312
Posted: 29 April 2014 at 5:05am | IP Logged | 9  

I'm curious to see how prevalent this damaged Doc is. I'm not
opposed to adding a layer, and can see where it would even fit within
the actual "Man Of Bronze" story. It's also something he should come
to terms with by the end of the film. But if he's damaged to the degree
of his Black's Riggs character, then the film would be a disaster.

It's a tough character to write for a modern audience. I've just come to
except this. Writers maybe over examining him, but I can see where
he might read as one dimensional. He's a perfect specimen both
mentally and physically, as well as rich. The Fabulous five are often in
trouble, but Doc rarely is. Most of the stories I've read have him
seemingly in trouble, only to surprise return to save his friends and tell
them he was never in any real danger at all. A little depth to his
character may not be a terrible thing.

   I enjoyed IRON MAN 3 and loved LETHAL WEAPON and KISS
KISS, BANG BANG. So, I'm willing to give Black a little rope. Now,
we'll just have to see if he hangs himself with it.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
Posted: 29 April 2014 at 5:18am | IP Logged | 10  

Maybe modern audiences would think that
anyone who would lobotomize criminals
would have to be mentally scarred? I
wonder if they will keep things like that
in the movie?
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 114423
Posted: 29 April 2014 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 11  

Maybe modern audiences would think that anyone who would lobotomize criminals would have to be mentally scarred?

••

Instead of just a man of his time?

But that would make the moviemakers have to work to hard to properly express it.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2587
Posted: 29 April 2014 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 12  

I thought the operations that Doc gave criminals just removed their memory of and desire to do evil?  He then rehabilitated them and made them productive members of society.  It was meant to be merciful and an alternative to killing them or letting them sit in prison.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Rick Senger
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8244
Posted: 29 April 2014 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | 13  

I think there are a few references in some of the later ones where Doc is given to some introspection and thinks that his upbringing has made him a bit of a freak
*****
Can you give an example?   As I said above, Doc does get physically injured at one point for a while and is a vulnerable shell of his former self, but those stories were written late in the run (and not by any of the original writers).  I have the whole set of Docs and would like to see what you're talking about.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Marcus Hiltz
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1027
Posted: 29 April 2014 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 14  

I hope someone makes a movie about Santa Claus and how mentally scarring it would be to have to keep track of who's naughty and nice. Just think of all the horrific things (murder, pedophilia, etc.) that Santa would be forced to have intimate knowledge of. Plus, he's in the North Pole all year long, so he's got to have a raging case of Seasonal Affective Disorder.
---
Sounds like a pitch for SILENT NIGHT, DEADLY NIGHT 6!
Back to Top profile | search
 
Ed Love
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2690
Posted: 29 April 2014 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | 15  

I think there are a few references in some of the later ones where Doc is given to some introspection and thinks that his upbringing has made him a bit of a freak
*****
Can you give an example?   As I said above, Doc does get physically injured at one point for a while and is a vulnerable shell of his former self, but those stories were written late in the run (and not by any of the original writers).  I have the whole set of Docs and would like to see what you're talking about.
-------------------
Not off the top of my head. Just that I recall him musing that his unique upbringing made him different, an outsider, in some ways that weren't just his superb abilities.  It is a bit of humanizing of the character, we don't get to see him have momentary doubts or inner assessment very often. It's not so radical though to make me remember which stories or writers touched on it. I was guessing some of the later ones simply because Doc does get a bit more human, goes on dates and the writing becomes a bit more sophisticated. But, it's still a far-cry from being "mentally scarred".
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Ed Love
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2690
Posted: 29 April 2014 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | 16  

I thought the operations that Doc gave criminals just removed their memory of and desire to do evil?  He then rehabilitated them and made them productive members of society.  It was meant to be merciful and an alternative to killing them or letting them sit in prison.
-------------------------
Calling the operations "lobotomies" is a pet peeve of mine. It's akin to saying Superman wears his "underwear" on the outside of his costume.

You're right. He found a way to physically remove the tendency to being a criminal and coupled that with removing their memory. And, then trained them in new skills and instilling a hatred for crime. Which means there's plenty of room for speculation. It could be that the amnesia was the biggest part of the success, removing a lifetime of reinforcement of bad decisions, associations, upbringing and replacing it with something positive, and the other simply addressed the more sociopathic, addictive traits, making them physiologically more empathic. But, it was a multi-tiered approach, addressing sociological, psychological and physiological roots of criminal behavior.

Whatever the case, they did NOT suffer diminished mental capacity or other side-effects that are associated with the weighted word "lobotomy". Some of the graduates worked at the Hospital/College. Some were part of his vast network of private detectives. Some simply lead new lives elsewhere. It's part of the fantasy that you have to accept for the sake of the character... just like in the heat of the moment, the Shadow, Spider and other gun-toting heroes never shot an innocent person such as a plain clothes cop or a bystander. And close friends aren't able to see through the superhero disguises.

"The Purple Dragon" deals with some of the graduates going back to their lives of crime, so it seems possible that the operation could be reversed. It's been awhile since I read that one, so I don't recall the exact circumstances.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Steve Ogden
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1263
Posted: 29 April 2014 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | 17  

I do not think that it is mentally scarring but there is evidence that he is clearly breaking down over the years of crime fighting-

In the adventure "The Ten Ton Snakes" Doc starts to exhibit emotions that he has never done before; Doc laughs and exhibits fright. He makes judgement errors and talks of his past and Doc admits that he made need psychoanalysis.

"The Terrible Stork" Doc lost his temper with Ham and he has a moment in self-analysis and introspection.

"Terror Takes 7" The last reference is made to the Hildago Trading Company. It is boarded up and unused. For me reading the books this truly was the beginning of the end. The Trading Company was so prominent through-out his adventures.

"Up From Earths Center" This is Docs last adventure. The rest of his emotional facade breaks away when he meets these creatures.

All this happened to Doc after years of doing his adventuring. But, it is far from "mental scarring" but something definitely happened to Doc over the years. It seems that it all got to him.



Edited by Steve Ogden on 30 April 2014 at 8:45pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Ed Love
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2690
Posted: 29 April 2014 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | 18  

"The Terrible Stork" is one of my favorites of the later Doc stories and has some funny moments.

Of course by this time, Doc has seen two World Wars and the Atomic Bomb (which he probably had a hand in) in addition to his regular adventures. He's had missions that have shaped history and the course of the War (The Lost Giant). I think of it more as him becoming more emotionally mature instead of burying them. The bravado of youth is past and he's finally starting to embrace and enjoy it.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Rick Senger
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8244
Posted: 30 April 2014 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 19  

I thought the operations that Doc gave criminals just removed their memory of and desire to do evil?  He then rehabilitated them and made them productive members of society.  It was meant to be merciful and an alternative to killing them or letting them sit in prison.
*****
That's the way I read it.  Far from a lobotomy, it wasn't that he took away one's identity or free will, it was that he removed the triggers that made criminals more likely to relapse by giving them more attractive alternatives.  If someone wants to play the semantics game, they can try to spin it into something more sinister, but I never saw it as anything but an earnest attempt to better the lives of criminals (and the world) by tapping into the best aspects of an individual and augmenting those qualities (much like Doc's own personal training).
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8312
Posted: 01 May 2014 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 20  

Rick, I saw it very much the way you do.

When I read a Doc Savage story, I try to divorce myself of the current
world we live in. A lot of today's technology and medicine have made
a lot of what makes Doc special, inaccurate or obsolete. If you try a
put a modern take on those old stories, Doc ceases to be as great of
a character as he really is. That's why many of the attempts to update
Doc to today fall short of the original stories.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

Sorry, you can NOT post a reply.
This topic is closed.

  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login