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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 9:37am | IP Logged | 1
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Even the bad guy being Zemo was a retcon.
++++++++
This is something I've wondered about, over the years. The bad guy in
the AVENGERS # 4 flashback is kept in shadow. A few issues down the
line, he's revealed to have been Zemo, a character who did not as yet
exist at the time of AVENGERS # 4.
What was the original intent, I wonder? Had Lee and Kirby dreamed up
Zemo that early on, many months before he was retroactively revealed
as the villain? Was it originally supposed to be, say, the Red Skull, who
wasn't brought back until several years later, in TALES OF
SUSPENSE? Hitler, himself, maybe?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132288
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 2
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What was the original intent, I wonder? Had Lee and Kirby dreamed up Zemo that early on, many months before he was retroactively revealed as the villain? Was it originally supposed to be, say, the Red Skull, who wasn't brought back until several years later, in TALES OF SUSPENSE? Hitler, himself, maybe?•• I suspect Stan and Jack kept the bad guy's identity secret in AVENGERS 4 precisely so they had a wide range of options if they ever wanted to have Cap confront "the Man Who Killed Bucky." That's before Marvel fixed their stupid story, of course.
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Roy Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 1323
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 3
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although it "happened" in a parallel universe, "What If #4" has Colonel Farrow read about Cap's very recent "death" from a Top Secret Dispatch dated April 18, 1945.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132288
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 4
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WHAT IF 4 was such a mess. Reading it at the time, I cringed at the attempt to cross every T and dot every lower case j. And it wasn't even properly within the structure of the series!ARGH!!!!!
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 5
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I suspect Stan and Jack kept the bad guy's identity secret in
AVENGERS 4 precisely so they had a wide range of options if they
ever wanted to have Cap confront "the Man Who Killed Bucky."
That's before Marvel [i[fixed their stupid story, of course.
+++++++
Yeah.
Y'know, I re-read CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS # 1, the other day. Still
one of my favorite superhero origin stories.
As with the death of Bucky, the reading experience is now a bit
diminished by my knowledge of the whole Tuskegee experiment-style
retcon that Rogers was not the first and only person to be given
Reinstein/Erskine's formula.
Cap has been the subject of a great many retcons throughout his
existence, but these two are probably the worst, for me.
Other developments, like the effects of super-solider serum just
"wearing off" are stupid and illogical (It's not like a drug that can just be
flushed out of his system ! His cellular structure was permanently
altered!), but not quite as insulting.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 18 September 2014 at 10:06am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 6
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The "Tuskegee Experiment" retcon was wrong on so many levels. Not only was it an insult to Simon and Kirby, it displayed a staggering lack of understanding of America in those times. The actual Tuskegee Experiment happened due to the utter contempt in which Black soldiers were held. The "worst case scenario" was a bunch of dead Black men, which troubled many in the military brass and the government hardly at all. In contrast, the worst case scenario of testing the Super-soldier formula on a Black man would have been (to that same military and government) if it WORKED!"You idiots! Now we got a super-powered n_____!"
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 7
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It's like Nick Fury being Sam Jackson. Sure, it works great in the movies for what they are, but... the real Nick has to be white, because there's NO WAY the U.S. government let a black guy lead a team full of white guys in WW2.
Heck, I hated how the Nazis never really got a mention in Captain America: The First Avenger. I know, I know - HYDRA are super-Nazis - but it just seems like an awful lot of white-washing is being done in the name of being more diverse, all the while carefully and subtly sweeping the true evils of the past under the rug.
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Doug Centers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 February 2014
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 8
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"Tuskegee Experiment" ?I have no idea what you guys are talking about, I have a feeling that's a good thing. I'll just live in my little world oblivious to certain retcons just giving a blank look whenever I hear a new one.
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Roy Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member
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Posts: 1323
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 11:38am | IP Logged | 9
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Weren't HYDRA made the villains in the movie so they could still sell toys at Wal-Mart?
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Bob Simko
Byrne Robotics Security
Negative Mod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 5982
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 10
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Wasn't it also to be able to get distribution in Germany?
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 11
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As with the death of Bucky, the reading experience is now a bit
diminished by my knowledge of the whole Tuskegee experiment-style
retcon that Rogers was not the first and only person to be given
Reinstein/Erskine's formula.
-----
It should be noted that the "Tuskegee Experiment"-retcon was an attempt to /recreate/ the Super-Soldier Serum. It takes place after Captain America was born. The honor of stripping away Steve Rogers being the first person to receive the Super-Soldier Serum goes to Dan Jurgens' Protocide story.
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Bob Simko
Byrne Robotics Security
Negative Mod
Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 12
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FWIW, the average age of a US soldier in 1941 was 26, and as the war progressed that moved closer to the 19-21 y/o range...so 25 y/o for Cap is probably a good starting point, at the very least. It would also work to support Cap behaving "old" after his revival...he would have been commanding GI's 4-5 years younger than himself.
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Topic Closed)
