| Author |
|
Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17671
|
| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 2:29pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
"Tuskegee Experiment" ?
I have no idea what you guys are talking about…
—
That's unfortunate.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14816
|
| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
But wasn't that yet a retcon of the retcon? I remember that the original plan was for Isaiah in "Truth" to have been the first super-soldier, but the dates in that series did not match the established history of Captain America (who received the super soldier serum BEFORE the attack on Pearl Harbor).
----
That may have been the original plan, but what made it on the page, whether intentional or unintentional, did not supplant Steve Rogers as the first official Super Soldier candidate.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132328
|
| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
But wasn't that yet a retcon of the retcon? I remember that the original plan was for Isaiah in "Truth" to have been the first super-soldier, but the dates in that series did not match the established history of Captain America (who received the super soldier serum BEFORE the attack on Pearl Harbor).---- That may have been the original plan, but what made it on the page, whether intentional or unintentional, did not supplant Steve Rogers as the first official Super Soldier candidate. •• In no way alters the fact that it represented a grotesque misrepresentation of the times. I recent years, Marvel has shown something of a trend in this direction. The attitude seems to be that treatment of Black people was bad, but not THAT bad. Even when I was working on LOST GENERATION, I ran into this. I did a scene in which the young Black woman who was the central thread of my story, time traveling into her Past (and eventually ours), was badly injured when hit by a car. This was in the 1950s. A White guy, who will become one of the "Lost Generation" of superheroes, takes her to the closest hospital, where he is told they are "full up" and she will have to be taken to the Black hospital across town. In this scene, I drew upon the real life experience of Sammy Davis Jr, who was refused admission to a White hospital in Vegas, until Frank Sinatra showed up and started calling down the wrath of God. It was a terrible, shameful example of how bad things were, and I wanted my story to reflect it. Unfortunately, it got "toned down," and in the final script -- not by me -- the White hero is told that the hospital really is full, and the whole point of my scene was lost.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Josh Goldberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2065
|
| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
It's been a while since I've read LOST GENERATION, but I read that scene the way you intended, JB. It wasn't toned down so much that it went over my head.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
|
| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 7:58pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
QUOTE:
What about Marvel's retcon that Steve vanished earlier in
the war and was replaced by not one but TWO other heroes
(Spirit of 76 and the original Patriot) as Captain
America? If I remember right, it was alleged that Steve
and Bucky went into the water sometime in 1943 or 1944.
Spirit of 76 was Captain America II but was killed on a
mission, and Patriot finished the war as Captain America
III. |
|
|
The Spirit of 76 becomes Cap in 1945. IIRC, Truman was shown to President and appointed him the new Captain America.
The Patriot becomes Cap during an attempted on the life of JFK, who was running for Congress in 1946
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Jeffrey Rice
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 September 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1161
|
| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
The Spirit of 76 becomes Cap in 1945. IIRC, Truman was shown to President and appointed him the new Captain America.
The Patriot becomes Cap during an attempted on the life of JFK, who was running for Congress in 1946
============
Oh Roy Thomas...
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
|
| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
When did Marvel begin to treat their pre-1961 material as being in-
continuity? Or did they? It seems like the Golden Age Captain
America, Human Torch, and Sub-Mariner stories may have happened,
may not have happened, but weren't "official" unless they were
referenced in a flashback, plus their histories were altered a bit to allow
for groups like The Invaders to have existed.
Re-reading the Silver Age Marvels, it feels like Fantastic Four #1 is the
real starting point, and that the only history that counted prior to that is
that Captain America and other characters were active during World
War II.
++++++++++++
Interestingly, Johnny Storm picked up an old SUB-MARINER comic
mere moments before discovering the real deal in that flophouse. It's
left ambiguous as to how many of Namor's adventures were canon, but
his origin was soon retold, and Roy Thomas began folding elements
like Betty Dean into modern-day stories.
As for the original Torch, Johnny has absolutely no idea who he is (and
neither, it seems, do the rest of the FF) when he battles him in FF
ANNUAL # 4. Roy Thomas later retconned things so that Johnny was
inspired to take his codename from his predecessor.
It seems that Cap's early adventures, at least, were canonical pretty
much from the moment he came back. Certainly, after a few years, the
origin and his earliest cases were retold and embellished in
SUSPENSE.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8364
|
| Posted: 18 September 2014 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Okay, I was misremembering the timeline for Steve being
replaced as Captain America:
Spirit of 76 becoming Captain America was done to explain
how there was a Captain America post-1945. The Fred Davis
version of Bucky was done to explain how Bucky was still
around, and later forced to retire. No idea why there was
a need for the Patriot to be the third Captain America,
though.
Frankly, I just wish all of Captain America's adventures
from the end of WW2 up until the Avengers found him had
been ignored, wiping out the fake, anti-Communist Captain
America and Bucky in the process.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2292
|
| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 12:45am | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
I seem to recall that it was Roy Thomas himself who said (in the letters page of INVADERS or possibly WHAT IF?) that the Golden Age Marvel stories didn't really happen as published. The DC stuff was fine, but the Marvel stuff seemed, overall, too silly, unrealistic, or not continuity-minded enough to be considered canon. In fact, that was his inspiration to create THE INVADERS--to make some Marvel World War II stories that actually WOULD be canon.
I have no problem with Thomas writing two replacements for Steve Rogers as Captain America. I think the point of that (or at least how I took it) was that being Captain America was a dangerous job.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Joe Welsh
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Posts: 197
|
| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 1:47am | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
John Byrne wrote: In this scene, I drew upon the real life experience of Sammy Davis Jr, who was refused admission to a White hospital in Vegas, until Frank Sinatra showed up and started calling down the wrath of God. It was a terrible, shameful example of how bad things were, and I wanted my story to reflect it.
My ignorance is showing here, One of my favorite shows is Quantum Leap. Your description with the changes in characters sexes, resembles one of the most popular episodesfrom the first season. It's amazing to me that I was unaware of the basis of a great episode of a TV show.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Roy Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 1323
|
| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
Re. Quantum Leap:
It's been a while since I saw that episode, but it may have been based on this, too:
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Doug Centers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 February 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 5481
|
| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 5:45am | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
Wallace- "That's unfortunate" ... Of course I was talking about the Marvel retcon not the real life Airmen. Or are you saying that's a good storyline to read ?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Topic Closed)
