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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 1
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I seem to recall that it was Roy Thomas himself who said (in the letters
page of INVADERS or possibly WHAT IF?) that the Golden Age Marvel
stories didn't really happen as published. The DC stuff was fine, but the
Marvel stuff seemed, overall, too silly, unrealistic, or not continuity-
minded enough to be considered canon. In fact, that was his inspiration
to create THE INVADERS--to make some Marvel World War II stories
that actually WOULD be canon.
++++++++++
I just read his text piece at the end of INVADERS # 1, the other day. He
basically asks the readers not to hold him accountable if an INVADERS
story contradicts a comic from, say, 1942, and that old stories which are
specifically referenced in INVADERS can be considered canon.
So, he was treating the old comics as a sort of loose history, unless he
got specific.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132282
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| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 2
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So, he was treating the old comics as a sort of loose history, unless he got specific. Instead of just ignoring them, as Stan and Jack did. This is where we're starting to roll into the age of writing for readers who are as knowledgable as we are, and treating everything as a "test" we have to pass. Roy's plea for understanding isn't the best of ideas, especially given the tiny percentage of readers, then, who would be as knowledgable as he.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 11:02am | IP Logged | 3
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Instead of just ignoring them, as Stan and Jack did.
This is where we're starting to roll into the age of writing for readers
who are as knowledgable as we are, and treating everything as a "test"
we have to pass. Roy's plea for understanding isn't the best of ideas,
especially given the tiny percentage of readers, then, who would be as
knowledgable as he.
+++++++++
Yep. Stan and Jack's take was, "Hey, remember these great characters
from the 40s? Well, they're back!". They did not impose upon the
readers to remember the specifics of the old comics, nor did they
expect the readers to insist that THEY remember the specifics.
Essentially, the return of Cap and Namor was a reboot of sorts for
them, with only the stories (just the origins, really) and elements that
Stan and Jack wanted folded into the characters' new incarnations.
This was clearly not intended to just pick up the characters where
they'd been left off.
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
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| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 11:29am | IP Logged | 4
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I liked the Commie Cap storyline. A nice study in contrasts and hero worship gone awry. The other two Caps weren't needed.
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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4825
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| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 5
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I was pretty young when The Invaders came out, and I hadn't read many Golden Age comics at all (just a few that had been reprinted in the mid-70s), but I just loved the idea of a group of Marvel heroes in WWII.
Looking back there's both good and bad with the way they handled the Golden Age history - there were some good stories, but also a lot of overly-complicated stories trying to explain inconsistencies or shoe horn in retcons (Having characters alive from the '40s and '50s and intertwined in modern continuity was quickly very problematic).
Still, I enjoyed the Invaders stories and liked the Robbins/Colleta art quite a bit (a lot more than Robbins' art in Captain America, Fear, Ghost Rider, Human Fly, Power Man and other titles).
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132282
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| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | 6
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I enjoyed the Invaders stories and liked the Robbins/Colleta art quite a bit
Are we really thinking of Frank Robbins and Vinnie Colleta, or are we perhaps mixing that team up with Robbins and Frank Springer?
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
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| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 4:37pm | IP Logged | 7
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Colleta inked the early issues. Springer took over with issue #8.
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Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | 8
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DOUG CENTERS: Of course I was talking about the Marvel retcon not the real life Airmen.
Doug and anyone else who is not aware of the Tuskegee Experiment, please read this right now: U.S. Public Health Service Syphilis Study at Tuskegee
A terrible chapter in US history but important for all Americans to be aware of.
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Doug Centers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 February 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 5467
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| Posted: 19 September 2014 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 9
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Wow, that's horrible. I'm ashamed to say I do not recall hearing about this. Thanks for the enlightenment Jeremy and Wallace.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 20 September 2014 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 10
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Colleta inked the early issues. Springer took over with issue #8. I'm well aware of that. I'm just amazed that, given what followed, anyone could have fond memories of Vinnie's issues.
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Brian O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
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| Posted: 20 September 2014 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 11
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Maybe Robert Bradley is just 'that guy' who likes Colleta's work? Had to be one SOMEWHERE on the internet!
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
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| Posted: 20 September 2014 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 12
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For what it's worth, Roy Thomas has said that sales of The Invaders declined when Colletta left the book. Correlation doesn't prove causation, of course, but Roy has speculated that Colletta might have made Robbins' idiosyncratic work more palatable to readers of the time (although I prefer Robbins faithfully inked, myself).
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Topic Closed)
