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Ron Chevrier
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1641
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| Posted: 30 September 2014 at 4:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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In my opinion, Batman's Rogues are an extraordinary collection of evildoers whose deeds have long ago crossed into the realm of Super-villainy. This extraordinary evil requires an extraordinary response, the likes of which only the Batman seems able to provide on a consistent basis. Therefore, despite his lack of powers, I would classify him as a Superhero.
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17671
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| Posted: 30 September 2014 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | 2
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Batman is a superhero.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 01 October 2014 at 4:23am | IP Logged | 3
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One of my favorite things about Batman is that he has a foot in each camp; he's a grim creature of the night waging his one-man war against twisted criminals in his own little pulp-noir city of Gotham...but he's also right at home hanging out with the JLA and having all sorts of globetrotting and cosmic adventures. These don't necessarily have to be mutually-exclusive concepts, because Batman is flexible enough to work both ways.•• I disagree. (This isn't a STAR TREK thread, so that's allowed!) And Denny O'Neil would disagree, too. As Batman grew every darker under his editorial guidance, Denny grew ever more frustrated that the character had to continue to be a member of the JLA. Denny even maintained that the then-current version of Batman (contextually the ONLY version of Batman, ever) would not have joined the JLA in the first place. This is a manifestation of the cake/eat it problem that traditionally vexes DC. They want to have it ALL, so they want Batman to be in the JLA even when the character has "evolved" to a point of becoming someone most of the other members would be more inclined to go after, to shut down! "I'm Batman. I just finished cleaning up the scum that grows on the fetid underbelly of Gotham -- and now I'm going to hop in this teleporter and zip up to the Moon for a JLA club meeting."
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01 October 2014 at 5:23am | IP Logged | 4
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[Batman is] also right at home hanging out with the JLA and having all sorts of globetrotting and cosmic adventures.
***
I've certainly read stories that do their best to make it work, e.g., the Stern-Byrne collaboration from a few years ago.
But for me Batman is fundamentally ground-level, like Spider-Man. Fights in his city, no aliens and monsters and magic, etc.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 01 October 2014 at 5:45am | IP Logged | 5
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But for me Batman is fundamentally ground-level, like Spider-Man. Fights in his city, no aliens and monsters and magic, etc.•• I was thinking just last night about how far off the rails Spider-Man ran in the Seventies, at just about the time I was returning to reading comics. I was typical of a phenomenon that had been gearing up in mainstream comics for a few years at that time: fans turning pro. I was different from many of my contemporaries in that, then as now, my primary concern was preservation (and sometimes restoration), while others who were making their way in from fandom were more concerned with doing the kinds of stories they'd grown up reading whether or not they were appropriate to the characters. Stan and Steve had Spider-Man battle extraterrestrials very early on, but they quickly shook that off and found the proper path for our favorite web-slinger (and the aliens were later retconned away by Roger Stern). But by the Seventies, especially after the debut of MARVEL TEAM-UP (the book Roger calls "the official death of the Marvel we knew") Spider-Man began more and more to battle aliens, monsters, interdimensional menaces, and even to travel thru Time and to take trips to the Moon! This was Silver Age Batman stuff!
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: United States
Posts: 12447
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| Posted: 01 October 2014 at 5:56am | IP Logged | 6
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Sometimes I think that even Superman would have been better served with the smaller-scale of his earliest comicbook episodes. Well, most likely not, but at least it kept his later endless powers in check.
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Brian J Nelson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 August 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 365
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| Posted: 01 October 2014 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 7
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I look at it from a geometric comparison.
A a square can be a rhombus, a rectangle, a quadrilateral, a parallelogram, a trapezoid, and a kite. Batman can fit multiple heroic definitions as well, all depending on what the need is.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 01 October 2014 at 9:27am | IP Logged | 8
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JB, what do you think of Ra's al Ghul as a Batman villain? I've
always found it interesting that Denny O'Neil created him, as
the character both takes Batman out of Gotham and is a threat
to the world rather than just Gotham itself but also introduces
supernatural elements (the Lazarus pit).
Also, is it possible to do a Ra's al Ghul story that doesn't
wind up feeling like a James Bond film? Not that I mind -- the
first few O'Neil/Adams Ra's stories are amazing.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 01 October 2014 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 9
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I disagree. (This isn't a STAR TREK thread, so that's allowed!)
And Denny O'Neil would disagree, too. As Batman grew every darker
under his editorial guidance, Denny grew ever more frustrated that the
character had to continue to be a member of the JLA. Denny even
maintained that the then-current version of Batman (contextually the
ONLY version of Batman, ever) would not have joined the JLA in the
first place.
++++++++++++
I should point out that I do do agree with that, and personally prefer
Option "A" (Batman working alone to clean up Gotham), although
Option "B" isn't necessarily a dealbreaker, for me.
While having Batman alone in his city works best for the character, the
character has occasionally worked well when integrated into the larger
DCU and the JLA.
Of course, the early Batman of the 40s only had an "honorary"
membership in the JSA, which works for me (although it still raises the
question about why he wouldn't just call Green Lantern or the Flash to
give him a hand when he's in a jam--especially after the JSA were
relocated to friggin' Gotham City!) By the 60s, however, with Batman
having battled aliens and traveled through time, his membership in the
JLA wasn't so much of a stretch. It's all a matter of time and place.
My initial comment was more about my admiration for Batman's great
flexibility as a character, than his being in the JLA and battling aliens. I
vastly prefer Batman to fight alone in his city, although I enjoy the
occasional story that teams him up with other heroes. Not a huge fan of
him being in the JLA, although it is an idea that has worked well, at
least in certain specific eras of the character's history.
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Anthony J Lombardi
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 01 October 2014 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 10
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From the first time I saw Batman dealing with cosmic threats. I didn't care for it. Despite all that has been said about Batman being able to beat anyone give enough time to figure it out. I disagree with that idea. As smart as Batman maybe he isn't Reed Richards smart. Plus he does have normal human limitations.
I've enjoyed him most when he was handling street level crime. I think that is how he works best as a character.
Edited by Anthony J Lombardi on 01 October 2014 at 9:48am
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 01 October 2014 at 11:12am | IP Logged | 11
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GREG: My initial comment was more about my admiration for
Batman's great
flexibility as a character, than his being in the JLA and
battling aliens. I
vastly prefer Batman to fight alone in his city, although I
enjoy the
occasional story that teams him up with other heroes. Not a
huge fan of
him being in the JLA, although it is an idea that has worked
well, at
least in certain specific eras of the character's history.
SER: I think Bruce Timm's BATMAN work demonstrates the
flexibility you mention. By the end of JUSTICE LEAGUE, I
really believed it was the same Batman (voiced by Kevin
Conroy) dodging Darkseid's omega beams who'd been fighting
gangsters in B:TAS.
Of course, Batman in the Justice League is usually written
as a Tony Stark/Reed Richards-type character -- the "brains"
of the team. There is something appealing about that in
theory -- a human being "commanding" gods.
Interestingly, I'm sort of glad that the "Bat Embargo"
prevented Bruce Wayne from appearing on SMALLVILLE. Green
Arrow/Oliver Queen arguably was used as a replacement, and
in a way, that works and distinguishes the two characters:
Green Arrow should be the flashy team player, while Batman
is the grim avenger.
Unfortunately, Mike Grell took Oliver too far into the "grim
and gritty" area that Frank Miller popularized with Batman
in the 1980s. I don't enjoy seeing Oliver fighting pimps and
drug dealers and mortally wounding either.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 01 October 2014 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 12
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Unfortunately, Mike Grell took Oliver too far into the "grim and gritty" area that Frank Miller popularized with Batman in the 1980s. I don't enjoy seeing Oliver fighting pimps and drug dealers and mortally wounding either.••• I really wanted to see the story that connected Grell's GA to Denny's, who ACCIDENTALLY shot a man and shaved his head and entered a monastery to atone.
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Topic Closed)
