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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 17 October 2014 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | 1  

I was talking to someone about THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 2,
which I haven't seen. He mentioned Gwen Stacy's fate in the
film and how depressing it was. This led to a discussion
about how "wrong" the death of Gwen Stacy is in the comics.
Much like Robin dying (and recently, it was literally Bruce
Wayne's son), how does the character continue as he should
after such an event?

There is tragedy in both Spider-Man and Batman's origins.
However, that tragedy is essentially what shapes Peter
Parker and Bruce Wayne into the heroes we know. We can point
to who Peter Parker was prior to his uncle's tragic death
and we can point to who he becomes as a result. But Gwen
Stacy's death doesn't have that sort of narrative effect --
nor should it, if we wish to preserve the character.

I recall reading that the original plan for ONE MORE DAY was
to alter things significantly enough that Gwen Stacy (rather
than Harry Osborn) would be alive again. I liked that idea
for the opportunity of freeing Spider-Man of that "line in
the sand" -- that big event that's always mentioned.

Peter and Gwen were a doomed couple for many reasons. It's
strange. Gwen has been in three major Spider-Man films and
her presence was "earned" solely because she dies.
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 17 October 2014 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 2  

It was a big mistake. Perhaps the biggest mistake to date in comics, but I certainly don't have the perspective of a historian to make that statement with authority. However, I think tragedy in the form of death should only be used in an origin and not at some distant and later date. Once a hero has a starting point there isn't much value in undermining those events.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 17 October 2014 at 6:42pm | IP Logged | 3  

My question is--Was she really supposed to have REALLY died? I've always thought it a little suspicious that she was already unconscious when she fell off the bridge and Spidey's webbing snapped her neck. No dramatic last words or anything? I started reading as a kid just after that and I came on board just as the "ghost" of Gwen started "haunting" Peter and I found that very intriguing! SPIDER-MAN quickly became my favorite hero and comic at this time. But even then, as a kid, I found it suspicious that the "ghost" turned out to be a clone and the clone was sent off to live happily(?) ever after. My Spidey sense was tingling then and it continues to do so to this day.

Edited by Eric Jansen on 17 October 2014 at 6:43pm
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David Miller
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Posted: 17 October 2014 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | 4  

It's been forty years. No matter what one thinks of the story, or what it meant for Spider-Man, or if it influenced the wrong kind of comics, would it be so bad to leave one story intact?
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 17 October 2014 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 5  

Was she really supposed to have REALLY died?
According to Stan she was.

Peter, IMO, was the guy who could never catch a break. It didn't
matter if he was in costume or not. In that way, I understood why she
was killed. Peter was changed forever, as was the audience.
At least she's still dead. We've been given a clone and and illegitimate
child that looks just like her. But, she has managed to stay dead.

Stan has also pointed out that even though he killed her off, he
replaced her with and even hotter girl for Peter.
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 17 October 2014 at 10:26pm | IP Logged | 6  

Gwen Stacy should never be mentioned ever again.

Problem solved!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 October 2014 at 6:26am | IP Logged | 7  

Gwen Stacy should never be mentioned ever again.

Problem solved!

•••

Is that even possible any more? With the industry dominated by anal retentive fanboys and lazy writers -- the former wanting no "i" left undotted, no "t" left uncrossed, and the latter content to mine the Past for story ideas -- the days when a "big" story could be done and then left behind seem long gone.

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Ted Pugliese
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Posted: 18 October 2014 at 6:34am | IP Logged | 8  

sad, but true.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 18 October 2014 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 9  

What's done is done and cannot be undone, vagaries and notes from the editor's mother notwithstanding.

Whatever story might be written to "undo" the death of Gwen Stacy, the original story will remain. The moment when Cap awakens inside the Avengers' submarine and calls out to Bucky has been severely compromised by the Winter Soldier storyline, but it nevertheless remains a crucial, pivotal moment in Marvel history in a way that no single moment in all of Brubaker's folderol does. 

The death of Gwen Stacy was a clear, direct sequence of events that built to that moment with an admirable simplicity and deepening sense of horror. Whatever Shaper-of-Worlds, Cosmic Cube, Watcher-assisted, Mephisto-Knits-an-Infinity-Mitten nonsense is contrived to "undo" that chain of events, it will be a convoluted, ultimately asinine cop-out and cheat. 

Well within the bounds of what the super-hero genre does on a routine basis, yes, but over-reliance upon those conventions are what makes the genre more or less completely irrelevant as a body of literature. The good stories, the best of what comics have done, do not rely on that claptrap.

Besides which, it will mean nothing in the long run. Conway's story (not Lee's) still "happened." There will always be alternate realities where Gwen is still dead (as well as those Claremont-inspired paradises where she's a kiss-ass, take-no-nonsense, warrior babe taking on the Multiverse with a sassy smirk, a SHIELD proto-cannon, and a pink, bubble-gum bubble at the ready.) The event itself will be hard-wired into the story loop contrived to undo it, making it in some respects even more a part of Marvel continuity in the sense that without it, the major storyline undertaken to undo it wouldn't have happened.

Spider-Man's marriage to Mary Jane still took place. "One More Day" couldn't have happened if it didn't. And "One More Day" definitely did take place. The marriage still gets referenced and nodded at whenever Peter and MJ feel a sort of weird connection to one another, even though (silly of them) they really don't know each other all that well... Huh. Funny ol' Multiverse...

Being as much a fanboy as anyone, I would love to be handed the keys to the Kingdom (!) and go nuts writing a 22-part crossover series where Peter is given the chance to go back and undo his past transgressions, the price for which is his identity as Spider-Man. (We'll make Ursula the Sea-Witch the major villain in this piece. That Spidey, a poor, unfortunate soul, in pain, in need...) 

He gets to operate in his own past as a sort of Ben Reilly, shadowing his younger self. No Spider-powers means no television career. Peter's probably home the night the Burglar breaks in (and he will because Marv Wolfman told us why he was there that night.) Shadow Peter will have to save them all. Can he do it without Spider-Powers? Can he take down Doc Ock? The Vulture? The Green Goblin? All without his spider-senses and amazing agility? 

Does he ever come into his own as that hip, swingin' Romita-guy on the motorbike if he isn't Spidey? Would MJ or Gwen give the time of day to the hangdog, embittered kid who never really got the chance to lash out at his foes and face his inner demons? Or does the good work of Aunt May and Uncle Ben bring him out of that angry funk we first found him in? Most importantly in terms of this story, can he save the police captain's daughter from Norman Osborn's vengeance? 

Of course, in a Spidey-less world, there would be no reason whatsoever for the Goblin to take Gwen (of all people) to the top the (mumble, mumble) Bridge and knock her off. In a sense, just agreeing to the deal with Ursula should prevent her death. Norman only did it to get back at Spidey and Spidey isn't there anymore, so deal's done, right? Well, nothing's ever that simple for Spidey, is it? 

Somehow we'd have to contrive a similar set-up (or just send him back, not to the beginning of his career, but rather, shortly before this story) so that Peter can save her on panel, in as close to a Gil Kane action-packed scene as we can manage...

As much fun as all that would be, in the end, he'd still wind up as Spidey (Holy Mort Weisinger, Batman!) in a present day much the same as he left it, probably for having violated some pre-condition that tricky Sea-Witch slapped onto the whole she-bang, all his hard work over those years, YEARS!, spent in the past, undone in an instant...

Except there's Gwen! Alive again. Somehow. In some way, some part of it all MUST have actually taken place... Even if it was only just that one moment... She's happy, vivacious, beautiful, and maybe just a little sad it never worked out with her and Peter. 

He was a great guy, y'know, but what with his friendship with that reckless criminal in the mask, the death of her dad, the hostage thing she went through, it was all just too much... New York was just an awful place for her. And Peter wouldn't come with her when she wanted to leave. His choice, but somehow she's the one who winds up with the consequences for it... 

'Cause in Paris, she met up again with this older guy, see? Okay, fine, it was Harry's dad, and together they had...

Cue the next big Crossover as we now have to go back and undo THAT!!! :-)

As much fun as that would be, and as much as I can see Marvel doing a story just like that, the next fanboy or fanboy-oriented writer is going to have to, HAVE TO, come along and put the lie to that one. Not just ignore it. Maybe not undo it per se, but they will have to write something that backs up over it and makes it all neverwas again. 

Would that make Gwen dead again? Would that do something else to her? Did the Phoenix Entity meet her halfway down to the water, put the whole thing on pause, discuss philosophy with her, and decide it would be fun to live as a blonde, human college student while Gwen rested up inside a cocoon from "the shock of the fall" having almost killed her? Maybe she froze upon hitting the icy river and the Red Skull was waiting below, ready to train her as an assassin...

Whatever is done to undo my big story, it would be considered criminal NOT to undo it, because, hey, LOOK at all the story possibilities undoing it gives us! Plus, some of the fans hated it, a smaller number loved it, but pissing them off means they'll HAVE to come back and read this new take on it, because they'll have to see if what they loved survived in any way... Most of all, it would bring us back to that wonderful, perfect, Marvel history moment of Gwen's Death...

Which, after all, throughout all of this, never went away.

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 18 October 2014 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 10  

Oh, boy. That is just the sort of pitch I could see seriously being
considered behind closed doors at Marvel, Brian.


Anyway, perhaps I'm in the minority, but the death of Gwen Stacy
doesn't bother me one bit. In fact, not to sound morbid, but it's one of
my favorite Spider-Man stories, since it very much reinforces two core
elements of the character (the tragedy/pain that both caused and
occasionally results from his crimefighting career, and his inherent
heroism and unwillingness to cross over to the dark side, even when it
would be easier--despite what the Green Goblin takes from him, he
refuses to be become a killer, himself).

The problem is really everything that came after--writers constantly
dredging the whole thing up again and again. The original Clone Saga
should have been the final word on it, with Gwen's clone leaving town,
and Peter finally understanding his feelings for Mary Jane. He moves
on, at the end of that story. Gwen should only have ever been an
occasional reference for longtime readers, after that.


Instead, we got one story after another of Peter returning to the bridge.
And, of course, the second, much-maligned Clone Saga spiraled
completely out of control, with multiple Gwen clones appearing
throughout.

Then, there was "Sins Past", the story that made me quit modern
comics. That was such a slap-in-the-face, archaeology-for-the-sake-of-
archaeology, desecration of the characters and their motivations
disaster that I was truly appalled.

What it all comes down to, as with Dark Phoenix, is lazy writers coming
back to a truly touching and groundbreaking story again and again so
as to leech every last bit of "creativity" from it that they can. And, every
attempt to undo the previous "fixes" just makes it all worse.


A major problem with the last few decades' worth of Spider-Man stories
is the tendency to wallow in misery and tragedy. Yes, there should
occasionally be sadness and losses in Spider-Man stories, but it is
definitely not the be-all, end-all of the character. There's a real sense of
sadism and despair that's crept into the character's stories, in recent
decades--one soul-crushing, life-changing tragedy after another. "He's
really a clone! Everyone close to him betrays him! Everyone dies! Deal
with the Devil to end his marriage!"

I prefer my Spider-Man to be a positive character, with only the
occasional dash of tragedy. The death of Gwen was a big spoonful of
tragedy, but not at all an insurmountable one. At least, not before the
navel-gazers got ahold of it.
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Robert Cosgrove
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Posted: 18 October 2014 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 11  

Personally, I still miss Betty Brant . . . 
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 18 October 2014 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 12  

The marriage still gets referenced and nodded at whenever Peter and MJ feel a sort of weird connection to one another, even though (silly of them) they really don't know each other all that well... Huh. Funny ol' Multiverse...

----

What are you talking about? Their history together is mostly the same post-OMD except they were cohabitating rather than being married. That way they could split up without using the "D"-word. 
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