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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 18 October 2014 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | 1
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I suppose when I say "undo" I do wish we could never mention it
again. That it wouldn't be a defining moment for Spider-Man,
one that winds up making it into a major motion picture version
of the character 4 decades later.
But as others have pointed out, that's fairly impossible.
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8030
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| Posted: 18 October 2014 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 2
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Whenever this topic comes up, I think about the first time I actually read all
of Gwen Stacy's appearances in the ASM ESSENTIALS and realized....she really
wasn't that great of a girlfriend to begin with. She was a snooty debutante at
first, but then warmed up to Peter eventually, and even then a lot of the time
she was berating Peter for not being manly enough for running out of a
hectic scene (not knowing that he was really running to deal with the issue as
Spider-Man).
But her death seemed to elevate her to sainthood for some reason. Well, until
Sins Past, which went way too far in the other direction....
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 18 October 2014 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 3
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I don't mind the initial story of Gwen's death either, just like I really enjoy the original Dark Phoenix Saga and Days of Future Past.
What would be nice is if I didn't have to have an encyclopedic knowledge of them to be able to understand the brand new comic I pick up next week.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 18 October 2014 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 4
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VINNY: But her death seemed to elevate her to sainthood for
some reason.
SER: Yes, I always thought Spider-Man should be like Batman:
A wide range of great girlfriends but no *one* great
girlfriend, no Lois Lane (a role that Mary Jane wound up in,
which I think was a mistake).
I also tend to prefer when Spider-Man is an escape for Peter
Parker, but even by ASM #50, Peter Parker's life is
essentially so good that no longer being Spider-Man improves
it -- until he "relearns" that with great power comes great
responsibility.
In other words, I like a Peter Parker who is *legitimately*
"Clark Kent" -- the guy the girls overlook and Spider-Man is
the "performance," his way of coming across as hipper and
cooler. I liked the thematic balance of authority figures
(Aunt May, even Jameson to a degree) liking the reserved
Peter Parker, while his peers weren't crazy about him, while
the reverse was true for Spider-Man.
Yes, perhaps by college, Peter would have grown into his
looks and started to attract Gwen Stacys and Peter Parkers.
Maybe he'd even wind up being friendly with Flash Thompson,
but this was all part of a future I'd prefer we hadn't seen.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 18 October 2014 at 7:45pm | IP Logged | 5
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Yes, perhaps by college, Peter would have grown into his
looks and started to attract Gwen Stacys and Peter Parkers.
Maybe he'd even wind up being friendly with Flash Thompson,
but this was all part of a future I'd prefer we hadn't seen.
+++++++++
I recently heard a theory that Spider-Man's story basically ended with
ASM # 50 (when he relearns his big life lesson and resumes his
crimefighting career), and everything since has been a retread of one
sort or another.
There may be something to that. Those first 50 issues laid down pretty
much everything that would be important for the next 40-odd years.
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James Howell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 363
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| Posted: 18 October 2014 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | 6
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Stop picking at it, or it'll NEVER heal!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132261
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| Posted: 19 October 2014 at 5:58am | IP Logged | 7
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Deaths and births tend to draw distinct lines thru a character's history that are best avoided. Back in the day, most superheroes seemed to have some kind of death as part of their origin, but that was okay. That was automatically in the Past, and did not define the chronology as B.D. (Before Death) and A.D. (After Death) in the way the demise of Gwen did. Howard Mackie and I discussed this often, during our brief tenure on Spider-Man together. How, if Gwen had just left, ie broken up with Peter, she would be part of the history in the way Liz and Betty were. Significant, but not really important. Certainly not something that needed to be returned to over and over. Unfortunately, comics were already changing, when the death of Gwen happened, and the new form the "creative" processes were adopting more and more made it nearly impossible to leave Gwen's death in the Past. Especially once the final tipping point was reach, and the Old Guard was gone, replaced almost entirely by fans-turned-pro.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12436
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| Posted: 19 October 2014 at 6:36am | IP Logged | 8
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As I recall reading those issues 40 years ago, whatever the shock of Gwen's death, pretty much right after it occurred the stories just went on. It took many years, perhaps a decade, perhaps only post-Phoenix, before her death was truly (transformed into) an "event." I knew kids that didn't care for Spider-Man, who were DC fans, and Gwen's death meant nothing. Even when Gwen "returned" as a clone, it was a blip. Think about being a new 8-10 year old reader coming in at issue #124 and so on. The story of Spider-man was not all-consumed by Gwen.
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Wally Coppage
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Joined: 11 October 2014
Posts: 12
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| Posted: 19 October 2014 at 6:37am | IP Logged | 9
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I get that Conway didn't like Gwen as compared to the more dynamic Mary Jane, but did it ever dawn on him to evolve Gwen as a character, as opposed to killing her off?
I thing the story where Aunt May became a Herald of Galactus would have been a perfect opportunity to bring back Gwen Stacy. The power cosmic can do anything, after all. In a perfect world, Aunt May would still be a Herald and Gwen would be alive.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19 October 2014 at 6:43am | IP Logged | 10
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I get that Conway didn't like Gwen as compared to the more dynamic
Mary Jane, but did it ever dawn on him to evolve Gwen as a character,
as opposed to killing her off?
+++++++++++
It was also felt that ASM needed a shot in the arm to boost sales. As
the story goes, they came up with the idea of killing off a supporting
cast member, and John Romita suggested that it be Gwen.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132261
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| Posted: 19 October 2014 at 6:46am | IP Logged | 11
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I get that Conway didn't like Gwen as compared to the more dynamic Mary Jane, but did it ever dawn on him to evolve Gwen as a character, as opposed to killing her off?+++++++++++ It was also felt that ASM needed a shot in the arm to boost sales. As the story goes, they came up with the idea of killing off a supporting cast member, and John Romita suggested that it be Gwen. •• Unfortunately, all this happened while I was still off in the Canadian hinterlands, trying to break into comics, so I have no first hand knowledge of what happened. I have only the same myths and legends that fans have been handing 'round for decades.
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Wally Coppage
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2014
Posts: 12
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| Posted: 19 October 2014 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 12
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So they needed to boost sales on the book that was their top seller? That makes perfect sense and is well worth the sacrifice of a beloved love interest!
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