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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 26 October 2014 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 1
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Westerns, with their bend towards lawlessness and violent, gun-oriented solutions to whatever problem is at hand is straight-down-the-middle for today's naturalism-saturated, grim n' gritty, violence fetish creators. And their audiences. Zombie apocalypses give even wider scope and scale for this sort of entertainment. (See: "Afterlife With Archie.")
The idea that the "squeaky-clean, sanitized" heroes of days gone by (Zorro, the Lone Ranger, the Six Million Dollar Man) must have, absolutely, without question MUST have engaged in ugly, violent, dirty fighting that left opponents bloody and mangled, gutshot, and dying in misery is simply WON-derful to creators and audiences of today. It's a revelation! Magnificient! They cannot get enough of this stuff! Oh, sure, yeah, back when comics were made with this "imaginary, 8-year old" audience in mind, Ben might pull the arm off a robot and make a crack about Hank Aaron as he bludgeoned the 'bot into scrap. Yeah, kid stuff. For kids who we now KNOW were never there! Never there! Listen to the boss, guys. He'll tell ya. The kids the party was being thrown for never showed up! It was us, the dedicated, violence-lovin', gore-soaked fanboys all along... We're the ones who count. We always wuz.
So now Ben isn't fighting a robot. That guy coming at him, he's going to have to lose an arm. What? You think being a "hero" is easy? You think it doesn't come with a price? Ben can't afford to be a nice guy. You know that. We know it. So watch as we make that happen for you...
And you love us for it, don't you? Well, even if you're one of the namby-pamby complainers, one of the kiddy-book school, and somehow you don't perceive how RIGHT all of this is, everybody else is loving us for it. All 120,000 readers left in America.
And hey, when 120,000 people all agree on something, who're the ones who are right here? Simple math should tell you it's the 120,000. Wait. 115,000. 112,000. 109,000...
Romanticism is a far more difficult trick to pull off successfully than naturalism. Almost any other form of writing is. Naturalism requires only one question. "How would this REALLY happen?" How would these characters really sound? What really happens in a super-hero brawl? Or when a space-vehicle crashes in a rural field in Middle America? How does someone really respond when their parents are shot dead in front of their 10-year old eyes?
Fortunately, for the naturalists, the mythicists, pulp novelists, and adventure fiction specialists already paved clear, distinct paths to successful destinations for them to wander from and, more importantly, come back to whenever the need strikes. Nothing in most fiction actually happens as it would in real life. If it did, we could all watch and read about real life with the same hunger for closure and sense of justice that fiction provides. That love of adventure would be happening in our lives and not those of our favorite heroes and heroines. Real life wouldn't be as messy.
Ah, but since real life is, and fiction is SO frickin' impossible to buy into so much of the time ("Yeah, super-heroes would be nice guys. Sure they would. After all, the guys with power and license to do what the rest of us can't in this world are social crusaders and defenders of the weak and downtrodden. You bet...") all the Naturalists have to do is bring a little bit of that ugliness and violence from our world back into theirs and the tone of everything takes on a different hue. Darker. More palpable. More real.
Now you can read a comic book without feeling embarrassed by how silly it all is. No one builds that many robots. Ben can't always fight a robot. He's gotta rip real people in half. Get it? Show that to your critics and the ones who look down on your hobby, who laugh at what you love. If they only knew how bloody and meaningful this stuff has become, they'd see that you were right all along... Buncha' meanies... Wish someone'd take their arm off and beat 'em over the head with it...
Of course, because the roadways we're tearing up do wind their way through fantasy, the real world never intersects in such a way that we have to entirely give up the things that define the genre. Dead heroes coming back. Alien invasions. All that stuff. It wouldn't be super-hero comics without them. Only now we do them RIGHT.
Westerns, same thing. Everyone knows the cliches. We gotta surprise 'em with what it's like when you really stake someone out on an anthill. Take 'em through every second of that. Every nibble. Every chomp. Let's spend the issue watching this guy die for hours. Didn't expect that from the Lone Ranger, didja? Hell, no. We are frickin' geniuses.
Today's crop of writers hew just closely enough to the established map to never need the gift of invention or draw too deeply upon their well of creativity, precious commodity that it is, and one that their skinflint employers really don't pay them enough to deplete. No, they stick to the bits and pieces the old folks before them hacked out and give a wonderful, blood-red and bile-soaked sheen... Make you feel the bullet as it rips through your lower intestine. And then the next one as it ricochets inside your rib cage... That's entertainment, brother.
Romanticism? The stuff we built today's better material upon? That's just a bunch of laughable cliches...
... That are really, really hard to write well. And again, they don't pay us enough to work that hard. Enjoy this month's Afterlife With Archie.
Edited by Brian Hague on 26 October 2014 at 9:25am
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 26 October 2014 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 2
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Brian, you are the king of the long post. Good thing that what you write is usually well thought and interesting.
Edited by Stephen Churay on 26 October 2014 at 11:24am
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Gilbert Roland Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 June 2008 Posts: 124
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Posted: 26 October 2014 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | 3
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Brian, you took the words right out of my mouth!
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 26 October 2014 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | 4
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I'm curious, how do you think we could get back to an all ages line of books? A couple of years ago, I came up with an idea that think could work if handled correctly. The original idea was a separate line of books devoted to the core characters and team; written and drawn by creators that either created a classic run on the title or are well thought of for there handling of the character or title. Such as...
Amazing Spider-Man by Roger Stern and John Romita Jr. Captain America by Mark Waid and Ron Garney The Mighty Thor by Walt Simonson Iron Man by David Micheline and Bob Layton Fantastic Four by John Byrne Uncanny X-Men by John Byrne The Avengers by Kurt Busiek and George Perez The Incredible Hulk by John Byrne and Lee Weeks Daredevil by Mark Waid and John Romita Jr. Doctor Strange by Steve Englehart and Alan Davis
Call it the Marvel Legacy line. All creators get to control what goes on within there own books with no crossover events. None of these titles would fit with current Marvel but they'd all exist in the same universe within the Legacy line. Assuming the line got some traction, just supplant the existing line. They basically did it with the Ultimate Universe, why not the other way around.
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Conrad Teves Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 2175
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Posted: 27 October 2014 at 6:08am | IP Logged | 5
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Stephen>>I'm curious, how do you think we could get back to an all ages line of books?<<
This would require writers to write for an audience that isn't themselves. Writers skilled enough to do this ostensibly aren't children, so they aren't going to think like children. What's more, is most adults aren't writers either, and they don't think like a writer either. To write for an audience so broad, they have to be able (and willing) to write a scene/joke/plot that everyone can appreciate on some level. To happily accept that not everyone sees things the way they do. Maybe even be a little relieved they don't.
The problem with American comics, is the buying audience has shrunk to the point where the fans and creators are of perilously similar mindsets, so they kind of are writing for themselves.
Remember David S Goyer's unfortunate She Hulk rant? That bit he said about Martian Manhunter: You can call him "Manhunter" but not "Martian Manhunter" because that's silly. To him, maybe so. But if he plans on writing for an audience bigger than himself (or a target audience), he has to think what everyone else is going to think, and his own view has to take a back seat.
Anyone doing this might consider keeping handy a checklist of things to look for when they edit. Because it's easy to be seduced by something you've written that flows well, makes sense to you, and otherwise satisfies you personally.
You know how not everyone likes chocolate? Weird, huh? Imagine a great baker who's one of those guys. Say he is tasked with making a chocolate cake for a group that does like chocolate. He may not swoon for it himself, but he should recognize what good chocolate cake is supposed to taste like. He should be able to tell if he made an awesome chocolate cake, even if he can take it or leave it himself. It's part of what would make him a great baker. And a professional.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 27 October 2014 at 8:24am | IP Logged | 6
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Stephen, Gilbert, thanks for the kind words, guys!
Stephen, I like the idea of a Legacy line. Unfortunately, Marvel thinks they'd already tried that, having hired back "old-timers" for the MC2 and Forever titles. They did not catch on with the current comic-buying crowd, so we won't be seeing much more along that line, I think. Many of the creators you list are doing current titles, so there's always some hope, but unless those titles hew towards all-ages and sell like gangbusters, I don't see a trend coming out of Savage Hulk or the next Perez title.
Conrad is correct. Current writers would have to be willing to write outside their comfort zone and that of the current audience. More than that, we'd need professional editors to actually impose real standards and shape the companies' output to reach a wider readership; editors from outside the business with knowledge of real storytelling.
Julius Schwartz worked in the real world before coming to comics. So did Mort Weisinger and most of the others. They hired writers like Gardner Fox, Otto Binder, and John Broome who wrote more than just comics. Hell, Stan Lee did things other than comics. Not so the current crop of rubber-stampers who simply schedule crossover events and otherwise rely upon spell-check to do more than half their work for them.
We'd need actual professionals to get anywhere again.
Unfortunately, once comics go "kiddie" again, the current crowd will depart in droves, bawling about how the best age of comics has been torn down by simplistic, kindergarten-minded visigoths and parents groups who could not appreciate the sublime wonder and exquisite craftsmanship that went into drowning that woman in the bathtub in Captain America. "The Fifties are back! Censorship reigns! Every comic now is an Archie comic, except now even the good ones of that line are taken from us! God, remember when comics were good and Jughead got eaten by his zombie dog?"
Make no mistake. There are many who believe that comics have never been better than they are today.
One of the owners of the store where I used to shop would sneer at customers whose choices did not meet his criteria for cool. All Spider-Man comics were deemed trash by him following "One More Day." The creators wouldn't let the story move forward. Wouldn't let Spider-Man grow up. Have kids. Be a man. They just erased everything about him that made him a decent character, turning him back into a stupid kid. Why read a story that will never go anywhere?
Any step back towards a larger audience will completely alienate the audience we have, and there is no guarantee the audience we want will be waiting to jump aboard. If there were a significant sales spike in comics whenever a film came out, I might be willing to believe people of all ages wanted comics again.
There really isn't one though, so I think the companies are happy to stick with the crowd they have, sick and depraved though their tastes may be. Hey, those tastes match their own, and it's not like the kids are coming back. The Orwellian company line teaches us, after all, that they were never here to begin with.
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Gilbert Roland Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 June 2008 Posts: 124
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Posted: 27 October 2014 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 7
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"Unfortunately, once comics go "kiddie" again, the current crowd will depart in droves, bawling about how the best age of comics has been torn down by simplistic, kindergarten-minded visigoths and parents groups who could not appreciate the sublime wonder and exquisite craftsmanship that went into drowning that woman in the bathtub in Captain America. "The Fifties are back! Censorship reigns! Every comic now is an Archie comic, except now even the good ones of that line are taken from us! God, remember when comics were good and Jughead got eaten by his zombie dog?"
That to me is the problem in a nutshell. The idea and definition of what 'Kiddie' means to the creators and the hardcore fans of the books who buy them now. The epistemology that they have with that is boring, corny stories for some reason. But that kind of thought process throws the baby out with the bathwater. The creators want freedom of choice, but we see that with the freedom that they have. They've created at best was ego-driven stories based on what THEY wanted the characters to do instead of writing and drawing the characters with their already very- well established personalities and histories in mind!
Keeping in mind that with the current outlook of naturalism in the current zeitgeist of popular culture, why not simply write the books in an all-ages format? If you use 'Batman: The Animated Series' as an example, although it was written with a tv audience in mind, the writing from the show and the shows subsequent comics, those can be used as a prime example of how all-ages writing can work in these modern times. My own personal choice would be what JB wrote in Alpha Flight and FF (and X-Men of course).
Of course you would lose the audience that is currently frequenting the Big Two, but If you think about it, would that be a bad thing? In my opinion, giving up a minority audience for a potentially bigger one where you can actually compete properly with a audience who have squarely put their alliance in companies like Viz Media would be a boon.
There can be growth with superheroes comics, but I never wanted to read a Spider-Man comic read how Spider-Man is getting on with his kids. Rather, a slow growth over time that introduces new incidents that can lead to a subtle change in character without changing the core of who the character is that we've grown to know and love.
Like Brian said, it may take a little bit more work to do to it properly, but I think the results would be far, FAR more impressive than what has actually been released. With all that said, I really wonder if the powers that be really actively want to get that audience back. It seems to me that they continue to keep listening to the vocal minority as if they speak for us all. Or perhaps they just like stroking their own ego with the stuff they keep coming up with. At this point, I really have no idea.
At this point, there is going to be a major paradigm shift from superhero comics to shonen manga. More kids that I see are way more into Naruto and One Piece and Dragonball manga than the latest Marvel and DC releases. The next generation will determine the future of comics, and until the powers that be get back to form, that future is going to look a lot more eastern than western!
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 28 October 2014 at 6:29am | IP Logged | 8
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Of course you would lose the audience that is currently frequenting the Big Two, but If you think about it, would that be a bad thing? ======= I don't think it would be a bad thing. But, as part of a publicly traded company a division isn't really allowed to have a down period of the length it would take to regrow a younger audience. The only way that would work is if they got bad press by the regular media for being too graphic.
However, as far as losing the current audience goes...if you don't tell them the books are changing, and the writing is good, it would be a year before they noticed.
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Conrad Teves Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 2175
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Posted: 28 October 2014 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 9
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Gilbert, Stephen:
I don't think this has to be about abandoning any current readership, rather expanding readership back to where it used to be, and beyond.
Apart from not wanting to read such books, I have no problem with their being books that appeal to (say) cynical hipsters. It's just another section of what should be a broad market. Ideally, there should be a lot of somethings for everybody.
Used to be there were books for Superhero, Western, Sci-Fi, Romance, Mystery, Military fiction, Comedy, etc. all at the same time. The broader market had a lot to choose from for all sorts of different interests. The Japanese market fills out all the way to the weirder corners of the market for every imaginable taste, and compared to the American comics industry, seems very healthy. I see no reason why this can't be so here. Other than the perception that Comics=Superheroes.
Gilbert>>The next generation will determine the future of comics, and until the powers that be get back to form, that future is going to look a lot more eastern than western! <<
At this point, even that could be a significant improvement.
[edited for spelling]
Edited by Conrad Teves on 28 October 2014 at 7:45am
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 28 October 2014 at 11:51am | IP Logged | 10
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Used to be there were books for Superhero, Western, Sci-Fi, Romance, Mystery, Military fiction, Comedy, etc. all at the same time. The broader market had a lot to choose from for all sorts of different interests. The Japanese market fills out all the way to the weirder corners of the market for every imaginable taste, and compared to the American comics industry, seems very healthy. I see no reason why this can't be so here. Other than the perception that Comics=Superheroes. ======= I agree. I also agree that there should be books greed to older readers. DC has the Vertigo line just for that. The independent publishers seem to do a good job balancing there books. This really comes down to the Big Two and there main superhero lines which are still the backbone of the industry. Since this is the case, I think they should be the all ages entry into the medium. Honestly, this comes down to my son wanting me to buy him the latest issue of Captain America and being a bit confused and heartbroken when I tell him no.
Comparing my Legacy line to Marvel's M2 line isn't a fair comparison. While all of the creators involved were really good, they didn't have the creator star power that I'm talking about and they were dealing with off shoot characters, not the heart and soul of the Marvel Universe. Putting JB back on FF and Uncle Walt on THOR without having to deal with the current continuity, in my mind would bring huge numbers. I really enjoy anything that DeFalco and Frenz do together but they just aren't going to bring in readers like the names I listed up thread.
Could the current lines just start writing good all ages books without telling anyone and make it stick. Sure they could. It's probably the best way to go about it. But, unless they've got sales numbers showing that's the way to go, they're never going to do it.
I think when the books started going more adult and graphic, 9/11 had just happened, Marvel and DC had just dropped the comics code and the market wasn't ready to bring in new readership. But, with three different cartoons on Disney XD and almost a decade of hit films, there's a group of 8-12 years olds that are ready to dive into comics but can't. If parents get an issue, it's either over the kids' heads or Mom and Dad get a surprise with the content and shut down that avenue for the child to read. Maybe the current course was best for a short term fix, but to continue at this point is just plain suicide.
But superhero comics need to change, or they're going to take down everything. They used to be about good vs. evil morality tales. Now, they're more about soap opera and how interesting is it for the white hat superhero to play in the gray areas.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2292
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Posted: 28 October 2014 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | 11
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Almost every comic shop I enter has a nicely stocked kids section, usually near the front door. PEANUTS, POPEYE, SONIC, ARCHIE, and now Archie's NEW CRUSADERS, DISNEY stuff, and similar. And these are often the only comics you might see on newsstands and in supermarkets too. So, some people ARE trying to bring comics back to the kids.
But these (mostly) aren't super-heroes, so I guess they don't count. The Big Two keep trying to do all-ages magazine comics featuring SUPERMAN, BATMAN, GREEN LANTERN, SPIDER-MAN, THE X-MEN, etc., but these also don't really count, I suppose, since they are out of continuity and aren't usually by the top talent. And they also seem to fail and get replaced--by more of the same.
What I don't understand is why the Big Two don't try HARDER with the magazines! They have the potential at least to reach a wider audience, make more money, capitalize on the new fans brought in by the movies, and you don't have to go into those "weird, shadowy comics shops full of middle-aged men"!
I think if the Big Two launched a line of 3-5 (each) of comics magazines starring the big names (with the second tier characters as back-ups) and actually hired some "old" (i.e. "classic") talent to do them, we might see a pretty big revival of "kid-friendly"/"family-friendly/"all-ages-friendly" (including adults who just like good storytelling) comics!
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Gilbert Roland Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 June 2008 Posts: 124
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Posted: 29 October 2014 at 10:06am | IP Logged | 12
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'But superhero comics need to change, or they're going to take down everything. They used to be about good vs. evil morality tales. Now, they're more about soap opera and how interesting is it for the white hat superhero to play in the gray areas.'
In my opinion, superhero comics, by their very definition, are works that are born out of romanticism. Watch any of the 1966 Marvel Superheroes cartoons, with the orchestral music in the background coupled with the way the actors voiced the dialog, gives shades of Wagner and Beethoven with Shakespearean overtones....on a show that was aimed at kids no less! They were based on modern comics that took the scientific innovations of the time, modern elements of drama within the characters (heroes with personal conflicts and problems, teams that argued with each other, etc) and created a modern romantic mythos whose shadow stretched to around the early 90s by my estimation.
When the fans that turned professional came into positions of being the next curators, I'll always argue at how beneficial their contribution was. They introduced naturalism into the core of what these books were. Brian said that these writers don't need to draw to deep into their well of creativity, but as far as I'm concerned, that's exactly what is needed! If a well-worn story trope or cliche that is known to come from the school of romanticism can be used as a anchor point to spin a story into new territory that no one has discovered yet, that could be the initial spark that could stop the modern superhero comic from sinking into obscurity. The true test of that though, would be if it's received by the public as something that they would want more of or not.
Eric I assume that the Big Two are relegating certain comics only to the Kids market as a means of wanting to have their cake and eating it too. Stories that aren't in the main continuity are 'safe' from the died in the wool fans of the current crop of comics who would surely cry foul (and then some) if something like that were introduced into their current pull list.
Naturalism can only go so far down that dark cave. I'm still optimistic that the pendulum will swing back to the core of who these characters are with fresh, modern storytelling ideas that will become the tropes and cliches of the future. I can only hope that I'll still be around when that day comes around (again,this is said with optimism).
With the Advent of Naturalism creeping into
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