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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 10:52am | IP Logged | 1
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The other day I got into a discussion about Moebius' BLUEBERRY. One thing that came out was the idea that European comics seem to do a better job with Westerns than American comics do. The general consensus was that when European comics do Westerns, they treat the subject with a sense of romance, where Americans are all about making it "real" and gritty. It's the difference between something like John Wayne's BIG JAKE and Clint's UNFORGIVEN.
I quickly realized, this isn't just Westerns that we in the States make this way. It's everything including Superhero comics, which is a romanticized ideal to begin with. We can't just have stylized action to portray violence anymore, we must have carnage and fallout. Real world type repercussions. IMO, 9/11 seemed to speed up the problem.
So, my questions. Am I looking at the problem correctly? Is it actually a problem? If so, can we correct it?
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 10:57am | IP Logged | 2
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I dunno. Grim, gritty, real and violent seems to originate with a lot of British creators who found their way into American comics in the 80s.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132129
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 3
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Brits don't really count as "European." The sensibilities created by losing control of the World are quite different from what's to be found in France or Spain. What the Brits brought across the Pond was definitely different -- and ultimately destructive -- but it wasn't really European.
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Rick Shepherd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 June 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1095
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 1:48pm | IP Logged | 4
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Particularly considering the timing of what else was going on in the UK at the time, too - look at the content of the 'British Invasion', and compare it to the rise of Punk in music/fashion. Lot of angry nihilism, often rooted in things like dissatisfaction with Thatcherism and the like, but mostly winding up as empty, meaningless rage and snook-cocking at 'The Establishment' in all its forms, deserved or not.
Which is how you get the Sex Pistols banging on about "God save the Queen - the fascist regime!" (Really? I'm as far from a monarchist as you can get, but you're calling what is now little more than a tourist attraction 'fascism'?!?), and likewise in comics, taking pot-shots at well-established (most for good reason) conventions in the name of 'deconstruction' - much how cutting the goose what laid the golden eggs in half 'deconstructed' it...
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Richard White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 August 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1058
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | 5
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I think some of the British guys are decent writers, in the sense of how their writing flows but they should have stayed away from American super hero comics.
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | 6
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Not really looking to blame the British for the problem. I'm more curious on how to solve it. What does it take to change an audience's perspective and bring about a greater sense of romanticism and fantasy?
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Mike Norris Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4274
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | 7
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Stop writing for 30 years olds with a "degree" in continuity?
Edited by Mike Norris on 25 October 2014 at 6:45pm
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4176
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 7:09pm | IP Logged | 8
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Mike Norris wrote:
Stop writing for 30 years olds with a "degree" in continuity? |
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Is that really what they're doing? I need to forget half of what I know about the various characters (including what happened last month in several cases) for current comics to make much sense.
Anyway...
Stephen Churay wrote:
What does it take to change an audience's perspective and bring about a greater sense of romanticism and fantasy? |
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Writers who embrace the concepts without feeling the need to poke holes in them? Before you can change the audience you need the material on hand to attract them.
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Robert Cosgrove Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1710
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 9:23pm | IP Logged | 9
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"One thing that came out was the idea that European comics seem to do a better job with Westerns than American comics do. "
Are there American comics that do Westerns anymore?
The Western seems to have withered as a successful genre. The sensibility that arose in the late sixties was more or less hostile to the ideals of the traditional Western, and it doesn't seem to me that we've recovered much from that.
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Robert Cosgrove Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1710
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 9:24pm | IP Logged | 10
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On the other hand, if Moebius is the standard, it's pretty hard to compete . . .
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 25 October 2014 at 10:58pm | IP Logged | 11
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Robert: Are there American comics that do Westerns anymore?
The Western seems to have withered as a successful genre. The sensibility that arose in the late sixties was more or less hostile to the ideals of the traditional Western, and it doesn't seem to me that we've recovered much from that. ======= DC was putting out a Western book until recently. Dynamite regularly puts out Westerns based on a variety on cinema characters. Lone Ranger, DJango, Zorro and the Man With No Name. The first Zorro series wasn't bad but the rest are pretty brutal. There first Lone Ranger series was decent. But, it would've been better without the graphic violence.
Don't get me wrong, the European Western's aren't pure as snow. They do seem to have an approach that's different from us.
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Conrad Teves Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 2160
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Posted: 26 October 2014 at 12:57am | IP Logged | 12
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Stephen>> What does it take to change an audience's perspective and bring about a greater sense of romanticism and fantasy?<<
Add a mythical level to the story. I think it's what generally separates Spaghetti Westerns from ones made in the US. It's not their history, so perhaps it's easier to not be so pedantic about historical context or lifestyle or even specific geography. You can then aspire to (the once coveted) dreamlike quality in a story rather than a naturalistic one. Both are illusions, of course, which is the irony of Grim and Gritty.
JB>>Brits don't really count as "European." The sensibilities created by losing control of the World are quite different from what's to be found in France or Spain.<<
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