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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 5:55am | IP Logged | 1
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Recently I read CBR's weekly Marvel Q&A. It comes every Fri. and
normally the current EIC does the column. This week, Tom Brevoort
covered. The topic of stunt writing was discussed, especially pertaining
to the Falcon taking on the mantle of Captain America. In the intreats
of not taking any quotes out of context, I'll just provide a link to the
column.
Link
Something to think about; in the early 70's Steve gave up the role of
Cap for four issues and became Nomad. Less than fifteen years later,
John Walker took up the role after Steve gave up the shield. That
lasted 17 issues, almost a year and a half. Around the same time,
Donald Blake was no longer Thor. This was also the case during
Heroes Return.
This got me thinking. Some of us have been critical of the the current
role changes, myself included. So, I have questions...
-Are we justified in criticizing the current stories or have we just Been
around too long and seen old stories become new again with a
different idea?
-Is it the casting we find to be the problem, or is it other factors that
contribute?
-A lot of us have left Marvel behind, and do e so with some sadness.
Are we truly looking for the return of something lost or have we simply
outgrown these characters?
Before anyone gets upset, a lot of this is just playing devil's advocate.
But, some of it is wondering if we've become grouchy old fans who are
cynical of what the new generation puts out and reads.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 6:20am | IP Logged | 2
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Before anyone gets upset, a lot of this is just playing devil's advocate.
But, some of it is wondering if we've become grouchy old fans who are
cynical of what the new generation puts out and reads.
------
Grab a comic from the 80s and see how well a 10 year old can follow it.
Grab a current comic and see how well a 10 year old can follow it.
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J W Campbell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 353
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 7:08am | IP Logged | 3
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Michael Roberts wrote:
| Grab a current comic and see how well a 10 year old can follow it. |
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The hell with ten-year olds, I find much of the Big Two's output impenetrable, and I'm a middle-aged man who works in the bloody comic industry!
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 4
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-Are we justified in criticizing the current stories or have we just Been
around too long and seen old stories become new again with a
different idea?
=====================
JZ: I'm watching T.V. shows like The Walking Dead, The Flash and Gotham. And truly, there is nothing in those stories I haven't seen before. I'm enjoying myself all the same. As I do JB's superhero stories at IDW, even though there are a lot of nods to Marvel's glory days.
=====================
-Is it the casting we find to be the problem, or is it other factors that contribute?=====================
JZ: I've got no problem with the stunt casting that Marvel does every so often. As a child of the 80's, I liked Rhodey's stint as Iron Man, John Walker as Captain America, and Eric Masterson as Thor. What makes my skin crawl is when rags like Entertainment Weekly and USA Today squeal "OMG Captain America is Black and Thor is a woman!" It's that kind of media-baiting that spoils any interest for me.
-A lot of us have left Marvel behind, and do e so with some sadness. Are we truly looking for the return of something lost or have we simply outgrown these characters?
=====================
JZ:s. Tom Brevoort and Co. may say to me, move along, I'm not their audience anymore. But I am loving the characters in practically all other media except in comics. Could it be that they simply suck at the job of making comics? |
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Jovi Neri
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 October 2012
Location: Philippines
Posts: 119
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 8:20am | IP Logged | 5
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I think it just depends on the creative team. An issue of Groo from the 2010's gives me the same enjoyment as Groo from the 1980's.
On the other hand, I tried to follow Superman Unchained by Lee and Snyder, it was nearly impossible to understand with too much unnecessary "pinup splashes."
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James Howell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 363
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 6
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Didn't Brevoort outright LIE, when he said a few months ago that the FF comic wasn't going to be cancelled?
Even mocking the reports, saying its not "remotely plausible" it could happen?
Why would ANYBODY believe ANYTHING this guy says?
With such a lack of respect for its' own fans, I don't see how anyone can justify buying their books, on that fact alone, on top of the low storytelling quality of their line.
Edited by James Howell on 17 November 2014 at 8:43am
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Charles Valderrama
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 8:57am | IP Logged | 7
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Yeah, I think it's the current regime that has taken away my interest in Marvel… it isn't difficult to see how different the stories are these day as compared to 20 years ago.
I'd like to think I've outgrown comic books, but then I find myself shifting thru my back issues and reading thru my favorite Spider-Man, Captain America, Hulk, Daredevil, FF, and Avengers stories.
-C! |
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Andy Meyers
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Joined: 05 August 2014
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 9:21am | IP Logged | 8
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But, some of it is wondering if we've become grouchy old fans who are
cynical of what the new generation puts out and reads.
Over the years I've read quite a few comics, watched many TV shows and movies, listened to hours of music, and read lots of books. As a result, I've become more demanding of my entertainment options because of my cumulative experience (the bar is just set higher). Also, being a 45 year old, there is an urgency to waste less time and the desire to seek out the best I can find.
What limits my opinion of what the new generation puts out is the shadow that the old material casts. For me to buy a new work it has to be really good. And, once in a while, a series comes along that fits that criteria. So to answer your question, yes, I am a grouchy old fan.
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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 9:31am | IP Logged | 9
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James: Didn't Brevoort outright LIE, when he said a few months ago
that the FF comic wasn't going to be cancelled?
Even mocking the reports, saying its not "remotely plausible" it could
happen?
Why would ANYBODY believe ANYTHING this guy says?
With such a lack of respect for its' own fans, I don't see how anyone
can justify buying their books, on that fact alone, on top of the low
storytelling quality of their line.
=====
Brevoort is considered by many to be one of the good guys at Marvel
and well respected. I'm not say he isn't but it's his job to tow the
company line so, you have to take what he says with a grain of salt.
It took a while to understand this but, this forum gets A LOT of
trolling. I mean A LOT! To many of them, what we are is a bunch of
grumpy old fans who can't let go of the past. Brevoort's responses
give a point of view that is counter to the point of view held by many
on this forum. IMO, more thought was put into his response than a lot
of things I've heard come out of the Marvel camp in some time.
Not that I don't think it's missing the point in some areas, but still
thought out enough that I think it's important to look at it and look at
how we think about the same topics.
I personally see the Falcon/Cap story and the female Thor story as no
different than anything we read 15-25 years ago. But, I do think the
promotion is terrible. There is an appearance of one-up-manship going
on between the Big Two on issues of race, gender, and sexual
orientation in there characters. A lot of outside publicity is being
grabbed to show outsiders how diverse the books are. In both cases
the surprise of where the story was going was compromised for the
sake of promoting it and other books. More importantly, trying to put a
spotlight on, patting yourself on the back is generally considered bad
taste. It reeks of taking advantage of an issue instead of trying to fix it.
Should we worry about what people who troll here think? In some
cases no. They are going to think we're the grumpy old fans I
mentioned. But, I'm noticing, that there are more and more people
becoming disenchanted with the Big Two's output. There criticizims are
verbatim to ours. I have to think some of them have read what we
post and agreed with it.
To post an opinion on a forum as public as this one is, I think it's
important to self evaluate from time to time and make sure we and
everyone who reads this understands where any criticizim comes
from.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 10
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Brevoort is considered by many to be one of the good guys at Marvel and well respected.••
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 11
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STEPHEN: ... in the early 70's Steve gave up the role
of
Cap for four issues and became Nomad. Less than
fifteen years later,
John Walker took up the role after Steve gave up the
shield. That
lasted 17 issues, almost a year and a half.
SER: You raise a good point, and I think what I prefer
about those stories is that they are ultimately still
about Steve Rogers. Even in the issues when Walker was
Cap and Steve didn't even appear as "The Captain,"
Mark Gruenwald's scripts reminded us through Walker's
actions why Steve Rogers was the *only* Captain
America.
Everything I've read from Rick Redeemer about Sam
Wilson as Captain America demonstrates that he and I
have vastly different ideas of what makes Captain
America unique and compelling. For me, it's Steve
Rogers, the skinny kid who volunteered for a risky
procedure in order to fight the good fight. He's a man
from the "greatest generation" in the present day. You
remove all that and I don't see how you have Captain
America any more. It strikes me as a "bait and switch"
-- Marvel wants to boast a "diverse" line-up but it
knows that Sam Wilson as the Falcon could never
sustain his own title (not that they actually tried)
so they essentially launched his solo book under the
existing "Captain America" brand.
But Redeemer's the guy Marvel pays to write the book,
so his view stands, but it's not necessarily something
I want to read.
It's funny, though, when Marvel talks about
"diversity" and it always seems to be a white guy
writing a title with a black lead or a white guy
writing a title with a female lead and so on... Maybe
there are black kids who are thrilled to see Sam
Wilson as Captain America, though I'm not sure how
anything has changed from when he was Cap's partner
(Steve Rogers is still in the book -- giving him
"advice" like his dad or boss or something). But as a
black comic book fan, I suppose I'm more impressed by
real life diversity -- it excited me that Dwayne
McDuffie was writing for Bruce Timm's JUSTICE LEAGUE.
I'd rather be in the sandbox with the cool toys.
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Matt Hawes
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Location: United States
Posts: 16427
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 11:06am | IP Logged | 12
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Stephen Churay wrote:
...Brevoort is considered by many to be one of the good guys at Marvel
and well respected... |
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Just 'cause he is one of the only people left before the Quesada-Jemas era doesn't make him one of the "good guys." I'm not saying he is evil, but Brevoort is constantly excusing or defending anything Marvel does, no matter how awful. I get it, he's a company man who wants to keep his job, but I'd rather he say nothing at all.
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Topic Closed)
