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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 1
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Found myself pondering this morning some of the tropes that have occurred and recurred in comics (and elsewhere) a few too many times. I know I've buzzed around this topic before, but I thought I'd work up a short list.• Previously unknown siblings. "The brother I/you never knew I had!" In all my comicbook reading, this one has worked only ONCE, for me, and that was with the introduction of Havok. • Good guys become bad guys. Of course, I worked on what is probably the Mother of such stories, with Dark Phoenix, but I have noticed a current running along for some years now, where characters who used to be good guys come back as back. Dates back a long way, too. Remember when Mark Gruenwald decided Modred the Mystic was a bad guy? • Previously unknown offspring. I actually stopped one of these, in X-MEN. Chris wanted Proteus to be Xavier's kid, but I balked. As soon as I was gone, tho. . . . • Everything You Know is a Lie. I have a fondness for a subtle variation on this one, things are not always what they seem. The non-subtle version has become WAAAAAY too popular, imho. • The Impermanence of Death. Just about everybody who's ever worked in superhero comics has played this card at least once -- which means the card is so frayed at the edges there's practically nothing left! Time to retire it -- or, at the very least, to think really, really, really, really had before killing a character. (This is another one where Dark Phoenix probably weighs heavy. A lot of people read that story and thought I wanna do that!!) That's a start.....
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12429
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 2
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I hate this one, which is a particular version of everything you know is a lie: a superhero begins with a completely ordinary set of family, yet later it is revealed that they were never so ordinary at all, e.g., Peter Parker's parents or Cyclops' father.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 3
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What I liked about early Marvel was the element of
redemption for some antagonists (as opposed to
outright villains like Magneto or Sandman). Hawkeye,
Wonder Man, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver,
Medusa, Namor... they all started with the black hats
but became good guys.
The reverse is more cynical, so naturally some
creators can't resist it because they confuse
"cynical" with "complex.'
My problem with "Everything You Know Is a Lie" is that
it's too often a cheat or an outright lie to the
audience to create the "twist."
As an example: There was a period during NuWho when
the revelation of an incarnation of the Doctor between
McGann and Eccleston would have fallen into "things
were not what they seemed" or rather what the audience
assumed, but by the time Hurt's sorta-Doctor was
revealed, there were too many statements to the
contrary that required the Doctor to be lying -- for
no good reason.
And I really hate any "twist" that requires a good guy
to lie. Darth Vader should not be more honest than
Obi-Wan Kenobi.
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16428
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 4
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I agree with all the clichés you mention, and more, JB!
One that is related to the previously unknown sibling and that I would like to see retired is the evil twin.
I also hate that in comics, nobody knows anyone normal, it seems. Supporting cast members are introduced as totally normal people, but end up having a secret past, or a brother who is controlling a crime syndicate, or a father who is really the hero's arch nemesis, or a husband who turns into a monster, or... And so on.
Doug Ramsey, Kitty Pryde's friend, was introduced as a normal teen and human. Since X-Men aren't allowed to have normal humans as friends, it seems, he was later revealed to be a mutant.
Peter Parker doesn't really know any normal people: His best friend Harry's dad is his arch-enemy, and Harry later takes his father's place; Liz Allan's stepbrother is The Molten Man; J Jonah Jameson's son is an astronaut that eventually becomes The Man-Wolf; Flash Thompson eventually becomes Venom; Peter's parent's were spys; Aunt Many dates Doctor Octopus; and there are more people in his life that also are either really super-powered, lead colorful non-normal lives, are are revealed to somehow otherwise be something more fantastic than what constitutes a "normal" person.
Cliches like the ones mentioned in this thread are just lazy crutches anymore, when writers can't think of something new or original in an attempt to surprise the readers.
And the last one JB notes about death... THAT is my biggest annoyance with modern comics. Death is used anymore as such a cheap marketing gimmick that it is disgusting to me. It cheapens the concept of death.
I have discussed this with many people over the years. Death is the MOST dramatic thing you can do to a character. This is because in real life, death is truly the great unknown, and the one thing we all really don't know about. Once that card is played, and the character is later brought back to life (as happens in most every case), how can there ever be any real drama with that character again? What... the character might die... again? So what? We all know if the character is a popular hero or villain that they will return.
Death in comics should be dealt with great consideration. Characters that are icons and popular should NEVER be killed off, though we as readers should always be fearful that they may be killed. And to make us as readers fearful, once killed a character should not be brought back to life (which is why popular characters shouldn't be killed to begin with). I know a lessor character's death doesn't have the same impact as a popular one's death, but again, the way these characters keep coming back to life means death has no meaning, so it doesn't matter.
Oh and if anyone doesn't think death is overdone in comics, play this game:
Name how many characters in the Justice League have died (and how many times!!), and then name how many have came back to life.
Now, name how many characters in the Avengers have died (and how many times!!), and then name how many have came back to life.
When you can name practically every classic member and put them on the list, that is SAD!
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Erin Anna Leach
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 February 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 746
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 5
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Yeah, I agree with all of those that John listed. I also agree with Matt's " nobody knows anyone normal any more ". statement. Something that I think is a cliché now is, lets cancel the series and then restart and reboot it with yet another #1 issue. It's really getting old fast.
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Marc Foxx
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5571
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 6
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"How can anything so big move so fast?!"
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Robert Shepherd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 March 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1268
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 7
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We get cliches because, as I noted in another thread, there are only so many stories to tell, and when you have a lifetime of comics at your disposal, you see that every story has already been told a dozen times over.
It's a cliche until you have to use it in your own stories, then it becomes a plot device.
I think all the cliches JB mentions are all part of the things are not always what they seem method.
If writers are going to use those cliches, and they will, it's inevitable, then the hope is they give their stories enough thought to keep them fresh in some way.
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | 8
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My favorite example of one of Spidey's friends turning out to be more than they initially appeared to be is Marcy Kane, a stand-offish type who used to prod and tease Peter about his love life, specifically his relationship with poor, perpetually fraught Deb Whitman (who would later go INSANE, much like Betty Brant.) Marcy was, to the best of my knowledge, completely normal, if somewhat mean-spirited, until she appeared as a supporting character in the Jack of Hearts mini-series where it's revealed she's from the planet Contraxia and is studying physics here on Earth to learn how to save her system's sun.
The entry for her on ComicVine opens with, "Marcy Kane is an alien in disguise at Empire State University."
And after the work Roger Stern went through to de-alienify the Tinkerer from Amazing Spider-Man #2... sigh.
The returning from death cliche is, aside from super-powers, perhaps the defining cliche in super-hero comics. I know people who like the cliche because it makes the heroes even more powerful and an even more provocative expression of wish-fulfillment. Not only can you fly or rip people who annoy you in half, you're also never going to die. Not permanently, anyway. They'll always find a way to bring you back!
Because of this, I was not looking forward to Search For Spock when that film was announced. It put one of my favorite franchises on that same bad path. Overall, the series is better for Nimoy's continued participation, but really, if your stories are to have any dramatic credibility, dead really should be dead. It's very odd to me that the fairy-tale inspired Star Wars has more credibility in this regard now than Star Trek. Sure, everyone comes back as a ghost, but at least they're still, y'know, dead.
When Jack Kirby passed away, Norm McDonald made mention of it on Weekend Update. "A date for memorial services has not been set since Marvel Comics is planning on bringing him back in a future issue," was the punchline.
Recent non-events centering upon the "deaths" of Spider-Man, Captain America, & the Human Torch continue to point out the flimsiness of this trope. The big marketing push surrounding these comics and the subsequent return of the character through the back door hurt the industry in the eyes of the general public. What good is the issue where Spider-Man dies if he comes back? What good is this thing I just went out of my way to buy? Why should I care the next time the Comic Book Industry has "big news" it wants to share with me? Those people can't tell a story and stick to it. Nothing matters. Nothing counts.
How many times has Wonder Woman died now? She visits the afterlife more often than the salon. After one bout with mortality, there was a Brian Bolland cover with her smiling at the reader saying, "Miss me?" Me, I didn't know she'd been gone, but I wasn't surprised.
A closely related trope that I myself have grown tired of is the Gigantic Massacre, usually involving blood-stained battlefields strewn with dead Asgardians or Amazons or areas of space clogged with the dead of the Green Lantern Corpses. Bludhaven. Star City. Blow 'em off the map. The higher the body count, the better. Death, death, death... A way to buy some cheap drama at the expense of characters we don't really care about, but presumably the hero does.
Usually, this is done to establish a new premise for the hero. Dick would never leave Bludhaven, but if Bludhaven isn't there anymore, we can do something different with the guy. Drop Chemo on hundreds of thousands of people and let's get this new storyline going. In the case of GL and WW, the new status quo often lasts as long as the murdering writer's tenure on the book (not long) and we go back to the old quo with tons o' Green Lanterns and stadiums filled with Amazons, often resurrected ones who somehow survived the last purge or were brought back somehow...
If there isn't a song out there about this entitled "Death is a Cheap Trick," there should be.
Edited by Brian Hague on 17 November 2014 at 12:33pm
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Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 11247
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | 9
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Death is the biggest cliche,with the announcement of Wolverine`s death in the comics,how many of us thought `He`ll be back in time for the next X-movie`?
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 10
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Villains can seemingly perish and return. I think
that's a classic trope. I don't like when it's done
with heroes and (especially "regular" people) because
it diminishes the genuine emotion and grief expressed
over the death.
The Joker or Doctor Doom seeming to perish at the end
of their latest insidious plot doesn't engender the
same feeling within readers as when a beloved
character like Aunt May or Steve Rogers is killed. If
you're going to pull that plug, better make it
permanent (or in these cases, never do it at all).
But comics have played the "boy who cried wolf" so
often with characters' deaths that it has become a
cliche and an unfortunate one.
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Andy Meyers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 567
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 11
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Everything you know is a lie.
The version I'm tired of is the Kansas City Shuffle. I just feel I'm being conned. I see it mostly in TV and movies and it seems a little bit lazy to have some huge reveal at the end that no one sees coming.
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Tim Cousar
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1662
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 12
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"there are only so many stories to tell"
There's another one.
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Topic Closed)
