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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15775
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 1
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I'll add my vote to cheap, impermanent deaths. They're just shit!
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Doug Centers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 February 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 5458
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 7:21pm | IP Logged | 2
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How about "it was all just a horrible dream". What a rip off.Although in "the brother you never knew I had " catagory I kind of liked the Jacob Fury(Scorpio) stories, so tragic.
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Kip Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011
Posts: 2880
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 3
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Evil twin/sibling.
Worse one was Xavier's twin sister
Cassandra (I believe.) Charles already
had the evil sibling in Juggernaut and
then they go too that well again.
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16428
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 10:41pm | IP Logged | 4
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Brian Hague wrote:
| ...My favorite example of one of Spidey's friends turning out to be more than they initially appeared to be is Marcy Kane... |
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Somehow, I missed the revelation about Marcy Kane. Ugh. That's horrible. What is with these writers sometimes??
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2291
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| Posted: 17 November 2014 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 5
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I don't mind a hero coming "back to life" if the writer can show that he really didn't die in the first place. I missed some issues, but I understand that it was shown that the Torch didn't actually die, he was just "missing in action" in the Negative Zone.
Likewise, I'm just reading right now the original X-MEN Marvel Masterwork where Xavier dies--but Roy Thomas, in his introduction, wrote that he planned a way out with the shape-changing Changeling set to be pretending to be Xavier. I'm very glad that we didn't see the last of Xavier in issue #40.
But when they ACTUALLY have the hero come back to life in some metaphysical way, that goes too far. A few years ago, when they had the Skrull Invasion and Elektra was revealed to be a Skrull, I thought it would be brilliant if all the "resurrected" heroes turned out to be still dead and just replaced by Skrull spies. But they wimped out on that one.
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Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 3823
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| Posted: 18 November 2014 at 1:55am | IP Logged | 6
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Good guys become bad guys.
--
It also seems that the opposite has become a well-used cliche, and I can't say I like that any better. I first noticed this in comics when Magneto become a member (and leader!) of the X-Men. Suddenly he was "misguided" and not simply a bastard. And lately Sinestro was re-instated as a Green Lantern and Lex Luthor became a member of the Justice League.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2291
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| Posted: 18 November 2014 at 3:33am | IP Logged | 7
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I also don't mind a good redemption story, but it has to be at least SOMEWHAT believable!
I think Magneto's rehabilitation goes back to "Days of Future Past" where JB shows the future Magneto old and respected, and in a wheelchair. You assume he's been through a LOT to get him to this point, and I can certainly see how Claremont and later writers might want to show that journey.
Sinestro even started as a respected hero and it's not beyond belief that he could actually make it back there someday. And I read most of the GREEN LANTERN issues where Geoff Johns pretty much made him a partner to Hal Jordan--an obnoxious, overbearing partner. It was an interesting pairing--just too bad that Johns didn't know what to do with Jordan himself! It's an awful thing when the unlikable villain is more interesting than the hero.
But Luthor? I can't see him even pretending to be a hero.
And the last few years where they've made Dr. Doom sort of a member of the family (through Valeria) just never quite works for me. They have to change Doom's hardwired personality to even try to make it work, and it never feels right.
When the Sandman went straight and even became Ben Grimm's drinking buddy, that seemed incredibly forced. You can't just take a villain at random and try to make him turn.
I'm sure there's a few longtime villains that might have the seeds of redemption present right from their very beginnings, or some that just weren't that bad to begin with. Some of the classic Superman or Batman villains like Toy Man or the Riddler might have worked, but everybody in the New 52 seems to be a homicidal maniac now. It's possible that all the redeemable Stan Lee era characters that COULD have become good guys (Medusa, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Wonder Man, Silver Surfer, Sub-Mariner, etc.) already have done so. That's a well that probably shouldn't be returned to.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 18 November 2014 at 3:37am
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 18 November 2014 at 3:46am | IP Logged | 8
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I don't know if this counts as a cliché, but alternate-reality stories have been overdone. DC is the leader in this regard. They should be called "Dimension Comics".
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Brian O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
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| Posted: 18 November 2014 at 3:46am | IP Logged | 9
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^^'Luthor? I can't see him even pretending to be a hero.'Me neither. There would always have to be an ulterior motive. In the old 'Death of Superman' imaginary story, it always bugged me that 'The guy who killed Superman' was 'The guy who cured all diseases'. It would have been more Luthor-like if his cures had only been temporary, but somehow, 'The greatest villain since Eichmann' still gets to be the man who eradicated cancer.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2291
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| Posted: 18 November 2014 at 3:52am | IP Logged | 10
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Here are two things that are in danger of becoming clichés:
1. SECRET HISTORY--A variation on "Things are not what they seem" but taken to crazy extremes. I thought Scott Snyder was a good writer on the new BATMAN, where he developed the whole "Court of Owls" secret history of Gotham City where these city-level "Illuminati" have been manipulating things for decades and watching Bruce Wayne from childhood, and even had their own "Batman" type agent. Okay, that's a maybe. Then he DID the same thing for Superman over in SUPERMAN UNCHAINED with Wraith, a proto-Superman who has been working for the government since the 30's! What?!?
2. POCKET LIFESPANS--Over at Marvel, Rick Remender turned my favorite espionage-focused CAPTAIN AMERICA into a sci fi by sending Steve Rogers over to Arnim Zola's pocket universe Dimension Z where he aged ten years while no time at all passed in the real world. Then he did the same for Sharon. (So, thanks for that--they couldn't even spend the ten years together!) And then, at the same time over in their book, Remender sends the AVENGERS to some planet where they spend years, age, and hook up, even have children! Then, of course, it somehow becomes neverwas, though they all remember every moment.
If you're a writer writing two comics series at the same time, TRY not to write the same theme for both books!
Edited by Eric Jansen on 18 November 2014 at 3:55am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132231
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| Posted: 18 November 2014 at 7:48am | IP Logged | 11
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Another that's climbing onto the cliché wagon: For years I have said there seem to be basically two kinds of writers in comics. Writer A, who is offered Captain Interesting, and thinks Hm, can I do good Captain Interesting stories? and Writer B who thinks Hm, can I use Captain Interesting to tell MY stories?
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 18 November 2014 at 10:49am | IP Logged | 12
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JB: Another that's climbing onto the cliché wagon: For
years I have said there seem to be basically two kinds
of writers in comics. Writer A, who is offered Captain
Interesting, and thinks Hm, can I do good Captain
Interesting stories? and Writer B who thinks Hm, can I
use Captain Interesting to tell MY stories?
SER: This came to mind when I read Redemer's interview
about the "new" Captain America. He'd grown fond of
Sam Wilson as a character and wanted to write a "Gen
X" Cap. Both of these would be good reasons to do a
Sam Wilson solo book (patriotism in itself is not
unique to Captain America) not incapacitate Steve
Rogers.
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Topic Closed)
