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Jeremy Simington
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 687
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| Posted: 24 November 2014 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 1
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It seems impossible to believe that justice has been done by a lack of an indictment. fivethiryeight.com has a staggering statistic that in 2010, which are the most recent numbers available, there were 162,000 federal grand juries and only 11 did not return an indictment. Granted, the grand jury in Ferguson was a state grand jury but it's still telling. The skeptic in me is desperately trying to make sense of this, hoping that somehow the grand jury really did get to the truth, but I just can't understand how Darren Wilson shot and killed an unarmed Michael Brown and there isn't even an indictment. I don't want Wilson to be convicted if he's not guilty, but not even an indictment and trial?
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 24 November 2014 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 2
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I'd like to not discuss guilt or innocence of Darren
Wilson at present but rather to ask a question about the
process. The police and the prosecutors normally work in
tandem to solve and prosecute crimes. How does this work
when the police itself is involved? I know there's an
internal affairs department but do they really go after
a suspect as vigorously as the police do Joe Public
(extensive interrogation, attempts to break your alibi
and force you to "slip up" and contradict yourself)? And
certainly, as a prosecutor, there's more pressure
internally to convict a cop killer than there is to
convict a killer cop.
Although ultimately acquitted, the officers involved in
the Rodney King beating and the killing of Amidou Dialou
and Sean Bell, for example, were still tried.
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 24 November 2014 at 9:59pm | IP Logged | 3
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The grand jury of Ferguson had to do what they had to do. Now the residents have to do likewise.
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Carmen Bernardo
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 3666
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| Posted: 25 November 2014 at 5:44am | IP Logged | 4
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This is turning into the survival of the Strongest, which is an indictment on any segment of society. On the one hand, you have the police who are following their duty to protect and serve the public, who get tarnished day in and day out with the reputation of those (relatively few) who abuse their role to become tyrannical enforcers for a ruling party, or just petty tyrants who serve their own interests regardless of the harm to public goodwill and the rule of law. On the other, a segment of society which seems to have been left in the gutters for whatever reasons, be they imposed by a faction from on high or self-inflicted by the individuals or the community as a whole, turning to violence in their despair, seemingly because that is the only option available for them.
I would like to believe that the majority of non-European American citizens are of the belief that Doctor King once suppported, and will voice their grieviances peacefully, by letting the officials in Ferguson know that more should've been done. But then more should've been done to resolve the situations that those neighborhoods (and the neighborhoods in every major city which seems to be turning into 3rd World slums) are dealing with.
Otherwise, we're just becoming what the Greek historian Thucydides once said about his people in their darkest hour: The strong did what they could, the weak suffered what they must.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132282
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| Posted: 25 November 2014 at 6:00am | IP Logged | 5
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Every police officer in this country knows that anyone he approaches could, at any moment, for any reason, pull out a gun and shoot him. Anyone.Until we correct that flaw, things like this are going to keep happening.
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Peter Hicks
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1891
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| Posted: 25 November 2014 at 8:26am | IP Logged | 6
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"Although ultimately acquitted, the officers involved in
the Rodney King beating and the killing of Amidou Dialou
and Sean Bell, for example, were still tried."
So what is the point of a trial? These examples all showed that police can do anything they want to you, including kill you, and they will not face meaningful punishment. Police on trial for excessive force always claim they (1) feared for their own lives; and (2) just followed their training. Coupled together, the courts have decided those two trains of thought excuse just about any sort of behavior.
For example, the RCMP officers who tasered a man to death at the Vancouver airport said they feared for their safety, because the man had picked up a weapon: a stapler. There were FOUR officers within 10 feet of this man.
Most cops have a thankless and occasionally dangerous job, but their culture of defending even their worst comrades destroys all their credibility.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132282
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| Posted: 25 November 2014 at 9:43am | IP Logged | 7
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Most cops have a thankless and occasionally dangerous job, but their culture of defending even their worst comrades destroys all their credibility. ••• Be sure to tell them that when you call for their help.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 25 November 2014 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 8
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JB: Every police officer in this country knows that
anyone he approaches could, at any moment, for any
reason, pull out a gun and shoot him. Anyone.
Until we correct that flaw, things like this are going
to keep happening.
SER: In Ohio, two people have been killed recently
because police thought they were carrying guns that were
in fact just toys. The first instance was an adult in a
public place, and the kicker is that Ohio is an "open
carry" state so it's actually *legal* for someone to
(insanely, I think) walk around with a gun in public.
Gun rights advocates do this often to "express" their
second amendment rights.
Of course, sensible people get freaked out when they see
guns in public. Even the people who vote for open carry
laws freak out when they see strangers with guns in
public.
This greatly limits the police's normal ability to
presume that someone with a gun in public is a bad guy.
Now, they have to make a split-second decision. And the
average citizen isn't really trained to deal with cops
approaching them with weapons. Even if you know the
basics -- no sudden moves, don't reach for anything even
your ID -- that can go out the window when you're in the
heat of the moment.
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Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 11249
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| Posted: 25 November 2014 at 11:09am | IP Logged | 9
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It`s easy to pontificate from your armchair,but put yourself in the position of a Police officer,where ANY day could see them shot.In the heat of the moment in a split second any decision they make could either see them go home to their family,or to the mortuary.In both the cases Stephen mentioned,it seems the victims blatantly defied the officers requests.I am speaking from the U.K. where gun crime is minimal compared to the U.S.
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John OConnor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1108
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| Posted: 25 November 2014 at 11:18am | IP Logged | 10
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Speaking from experience, the hardest thing to do is is to pull or not pull the trigger. Things move extremely fast and agonizingly slow at the same time.
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Brian O'Neill
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 November 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 1964
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| Posted: 25 November 2014 at 11:27am | IP Logged | 11
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Regarding that story in Ohio that Stephen mentioned, an account that I read said that the person who called the police said 'There's a guy waving a gun around. It might be fake, but I don't know.' Now, I haven't seen any photos of the 12-year old victim, who may or may not have looked like he might have been older than 12, but the point is that describing him as 'a guy' instead of 'a kid' seemed a bit odd. That police department said they were looking into whether the information provided to the officers beforee the incident was accurate.
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Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 11249
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| Posted: 25 November 2014 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 12
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Don`t you Americans use the word `guy` as a generic term for a male? It`s crept into the media over here,with groups of both sexes being called `you guys`
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