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James Howell
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Posted: 27 November 2014 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | 1  

So, you're willing to let hundreds of thousands of people. to have their Civil Rights violated every year, some getting beaten, illegally arrested, and killed, so that MAYBE 2% of guns are taken off the street?

If you did a job, and were only successful,10% of the time, you'd be FIRED.

Especially when actual lives are involved.

This is why Police Brutality and Harassment is still prevalent.
For some, it doesn't matter that innocent Black people get harassed, brutalized, or killed..

For a lot of White people. (not all)  they breathe a quiet sigh of relief, that one less N-Word is alive on the streets.

Dehumanization, to justify oppressing and killing Black people, is part of the system of Institutional Racism.

So much for being in a "Post-Racial America".
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Hector Baez
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Posted: 27 November 2014 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | 2  

I have felt that Stop-and-Frisk is not only ineffective but at the same time it is racial profiling.

I also believe that the profession of a policeman is one that should be respected.
I grew up in NYC at a time when it was not in effect, so I looked up at the police with due respect.

That said IF I was stopped daily for no other reason that being Hispanic or wearing a Hoodie I don't think I would have given them that same level of respect.

This link provides some data that is not surprising but just shows how ineffective the police practice of Stop-and-Frisk is:
http://www.nyclu.org/content/stop-and-frisk-data

Just to sum up on average of  85% of people stopped from 2002 til the first half of 2014 are completely innocent.

IMO "Probably Cause" is not the reason for these stops.
(Unless every cop in NYC has taken a stupid pill since I moved away and are clueless to the criminal element)....sarcasm implied.

Another point that has already been brought up is on average in that same time 50%-55% that are stopped are black.

In New York's five boroughs there is no Demographics where the population is 50% or more black.

IMO an excessive amount of the black community is taking the brunt of this law.

Hispanic's that are stopped comprise about 30%.

Whites that are stopped comprise flat line of about 10%.

*Just to put that into perspective as of 2010 demographic profile of race and ethnicity in New York City are:

44% White (Including "White" Hispanics)
25% Black
28% Hispanic
12% Asian

*Granted the numbers are rounded off for brevity.

IF you are stopped 50% or more every day on your way home, to work, to school, I suspect you too would feel that there IS something wrong with the system.

IF you are stopped 10% of the time, then not so much.....

Lastly over 50% stopped are from the ages of 14-24.

My big concern there is why is stopping a minor for Stop-and-Frisk a legal activity for police.

That in and of itself will have a generation of children growing up to fear the police.
 










Edited by Hector Baez on 27 November 2014 at 5:51pm
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Wilson Mui
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Posted: 27 November 2014 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | 3  

Just to sum up on average of 85% of people stopped from 2002 til the first half of 2014 are completely innocent.

=============

I wonder what they mean by "completely innocent". If a cop sees someone turning the knob on doors as they walk down a street to see if any are unlocked, would that be considered "completely innocent"? The person has not committed a crime and might not have a gun. Maybe the stop and frisk will make him think twice about looking for a place to burglarize.

Separately, I read an article about a study done by the police to see what impact the ending of stop and frisk has had. While crime overall continues to decline, certain neighborhoods have seen an uptick in violence, particularly shootings. It still might be too early to make a connection though.
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Wilson Mui
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Posted: 27 November 2014 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | 4  

My big concern there is why is stopping a minor for Stop-and-Frisk a legal activity for police.

===========

Apparently, a lot of violent acts are being committed by crews in various neighborhoods, which tend to be younger. They range in age of 12-20 years old.
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 27 November 2014 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | 5  

Just to sum up on average of 85% of people stopped from
2002 til the first half of 2014 are completely innocent.
.
.
.
Another point that has already been brought up is on
average in that same time 50%-55% that are stopped are
black.

In New York's five boroughs there is no Demographics
where the population is 50% or more black.
.
.
44% White (Including "White" Hispanics)
25% Black
28% Hispanic
12% Asian

------

But why is this being broken down to the entire city or its
boroughs? I kinda doubt that the SAFs were taking place
much on the Upper East Side or Riverdale. To Wilson's
point, the practice was more than likely concentrated to
areas with higher crime rates, which though it may not be
PC to report, the demographics for those areas are
definitely going to be skewed differently than what was
listed for the entire city.

Now, the 85% innocence rate is still relevant, I can't argue
with that. But now let's see if the SAF-concentrated areas
observe a 15% increase or so in crime.
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Hector Baez
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Posted: 27 November 2014 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 6  

**I wonder what they mean by "completely innocent".

"completely innocent" as in there was no intent to commit a crime or no proof of any illegal activity after the stop.


**If a cop sees someone turning the knob on doors as they walk down a street to see if any are unlocked, would that be considered "completely innocent"?

Not the same thing the fact that the cop sees the person is beyond stop and frisk.
What you have described above is probable cause.

Just a quick Google search on the policy:

"
The stop and frisk policy was adopted from English law in a number of American courts. In accordance with English common law, without statutory provisions, a police officer has the power to stop, question, and frisk suspects given reasonable circumstances. Based on a standard which holds less than probable cause, this power is granted upon the standard of reasonable suspicion."

Hence, walking while black should NOT be considered reasonable suspicion.

**The person has not committed a crime and might not have a gun. Maybe the stop and frisk will make him think twice about looking for a place to burglarize.

IMO stop and frisk will have (has had) zero effect on burglaries or any career criminals.

Considering 9 out of 10 people stopped have been completely innocent, stop and frisk has had very little impact on crime.

**Separately, I read an article about a study done by the police to see what impact the ending of stop and frisk has had. While crime overall continues to decline, certain neighborhoods have seen an uptick in violence, particularly shootings. It still might be too early to make a connection though.

"certain neighborhoods" will always have higher crime rates usually the poor.
To present stop and frisk as an solution to neighborhood crime is IMO less than a convincing argument for the policy.
It also leads to a more specific target group of the policy,  one that will be blatantly skewed.
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Wilson Mui
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Posted: 27 November 2014 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 7  

Actually, the situation I described is not "probable cause" since no crime has been committed.

Edited by Wilson Mui on 27 November 2014 at 6:56pm
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Hector Baez
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Posted: 27 November 2014 at 7:00pm | IP Logged | 8  

**But why is this being broken down to the entire city or its
boroughs?


Entire city, I apologize I did not make that clear, also I put the breakdown of the entire city Demographics  as a perspective, that information was not included in the report, just my own Google search.

**I kinda doubt that the SAFs were taking place
much on the Upper East Side or Riverdale.


I agree.

**the practice was more than likely concentrated to
areas with higher crime rates, which though it may not be
PC to report, the demographics for those areas are
definitely going to be skewed differently than what was
listed for the entire city.


Again, I agree,  the demographic city data is not as skewed as the data in the report.

So...realistically anyone who lives in or has lived in the "bad" neighborhoods in the Bronx, Brooklyn or parts of Manhattan and Queens knows what the demographics are....


Edited by Hector Baez on 27 November 2014 at 9:26pm
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Hector Baez
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Posted: 27 November 2014 at 7:16pm | IP Logged | 9  

**Apparently, a lot of violent acts are being committed by crews in various neighborhoods, which tend to be younger. They range in age of 12-20 years old.

Honestly, I have no idea if the Crips or the Bloods have moved into NYC. As I said I have not lived there in some time.
Maybe someone else can chime in on that perspective.
But I would think Gang related crime would be a Gang Task Force responsibility, if it is indeed a concern in various neighborhoods.


**Actually, the situation I described is not "probable cause" since no crime has been committed.


I disagree....

probable cause is the standard by which an officer or agent of the law has the grounds to making an arrest or conducting a personal or property search, etc. when criminal charges are being considered.

or

Probable
cause is a level of reasonable belief, based on facts that can be articulated, that is required arrest and prosecute a person in criminal court. Before a person can be arrested, the police must possess enough facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the claim or charge is true.



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Joe Welsh
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Posted: 28 November 2014 at 3:49am | IP Logged | 10  

Ok,  Let me relate a personal story  I'm white, 48 years old, driving an SUV I live in Pennsylvania.  In a nice suburb of Philadelphia.  (Bristol, Pa)

Earlier this summer I was supposed to meet some friends at a restaurant the for dinner.  I got lost.  I ended up in a neighborhood where I had never been.  

I stopped my car to consult my phone for directions.  Suddenly there were 2 Philadelphia police cars next to me.  The asked me to get out of my car. When I asked why I was told to get out of my car immediately. I did so.

I asked what the problem was and I was told that I was suspected of buying drugs  Apparently I was in an area that was known for drug trafficking.  I was told it would be easier on me if I allowed the search of my car and person.  I tried to explain that I was lost and it was meant with skepticism.  Eventually, I was allowed to continue on my way.  

The police apologized to me but I asked why I was targeted and they said more than half the time a white male in a semi expensive vehicle in this neighborhood is actually purchasing drugs.

Experience and knowledge of an area is what the police have to do to protect most of the population,

I wasn't a victim of racial profiling, I was a victim of real life profiling. Sure there will be abuses.  But do you really want law enforcement people to ignore their instincts, knowledge and experience because they are afraid of the ramifications of being wrong?

To answer the example of being targeting in New York.  Let me ask this.

You are walking on the sidewalk.  There is a police car observing the sidewalk,  The police notice a individual walking behind you.  They are wearing a long coat.  They have one hand in the jacket pocket.  They are walking briskly and closing the distance between you.  The police notice he is Black.  You are black.  He ends up mugging you and shoots you when you resist the mugging.  The police didn't interfere because they were worried about accused of racial profiling.  They ignore their experience, training and instincts because they have to worry about the ramifications of being wrong.  After all, all  they really see are two black men walking on a sidewalk.  Happens all the time right?

What really scary about my scenario, is that the victim can now sue the police officers in civil court because they didn't act.

Being a Cop (white, black, Hispanic or a woman) is a hard job.  If you can do better, I suggest you sign up  at your local academy, otherwise maybe you could exercise some sense.

There are good people out there and there are bad people out there and they don't wear signs.

Joe





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David Allen Perrin
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Posted: 28 November 2014 at 5:51am | IP Logged | 11  

"The police apologized to me but I asked why I was targeted and they said more than half the time a white male in a semi expensive vehicle in this neighborhood is actually purchasing drugs."

Would it have been possible for the police in the cruiser to continue to observe you to see if you would indeed purchase drugs....and then stop and arrest you? 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 November 2014 at 6:19am | IP Logged | 12  

"The police apologized to me but I asked why I was targeted and they said more than half the time a white male in a semi expensive vehicle in this neighborhood is actually purchasing drugs."

Would it have been possible for the police in the cruiser to continue to observe you to see if you would indeed purchase drugs....and then stop and arrest you?

••

What if he'd already bought the drugs?

Boy, I am glad a lot of the people posting on this topic are NOT cops. The bad guys would have a field day!

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