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Topic: Comics Really Aren’t For Kids Anymore (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 29 November 2014 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 1  

I'm not familiar with "Mighty Thor" or those "kid-friendly" Wolverine
books. Were they really "on the stands," or strictly DSM like everything
else?
======
I'm not sure about the Wolverine ones but "Mighty Thor" definitely
was. I believe Chris Samnee did the art. You can now find then in the
graphic novel or kids section at B&N or BAM. They are digest sized
IIRC. The Wolverine comic might be from the "Marvel Adventures" kids
line from a few years back. Most of those books have been collected
in digest form as well. But, the line was canceled about five years ago.
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Bill Sandefur
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Posted: 29 November 2014 at 8:06am | IP Logged | 2  

The problem with today's comics is that there seems to be almost no one left in the business who actually understands how to write (or draw) good superhero comics anymore. Todays "creators" seem to think that comicbooks have to be either for adults only OR for kids only. When I was growing up, comicbooks were pretty much just comicbooks. Superhero comics like Spider-Man and Batman were made for ALL AGES. They were colorful and fun enough to appeal to kids, and had fast paced, action movie style stories, with complex enough plots to make them compelling for adults.

When I get into this discussion with other comicbook readers who think that comics need to be the way they are now or adults won't read them, I always point to examples like the Star Wars movies. A 10 year old can watch Star Wars (the originals anyway) and be totally enthralled and entertained (because I was at that age), and a 45 year old can watch the exact same movies and love them just as much and be just as entertained.

That's exactly the way comics USED to be in the 70's and 80's (when they were at their absolute best, IMO). Just sophisticated enough to appeal to adult readers, without going over the top with the dark, sex and violence, grim and gritty crap as to become inappropriate (and uninteresting) for children. We really lost something somewhere along the the way when the wrong people took over reigns of the industry and reshaped it into the dystopian landscape we have today.


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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 November 2014 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 3  

The problem with today's comics is that there seems to be almost no one left in the business who actually understands how to write (or draw) good superhero comics anymore. Todays "creators" seem to think that comicbooks have to be either for adults only OR for kids only. When I was growing up, comicbooks were pretty much just comicbooks. Superhero comics like Spider-Man and Batman were made for ALL AGES. They were colorful and fun enough to appeal to kids, and had fast paced, action movie style stories, with complex enough plots to make them compelling for adults.

••

The talent for writing in "layers" seems definitely to have atrophied in the time I have been in the Biz. And really, even before I got into comics professionally, when the fad for "relevance" was starting to take over, and more and more comics hit that same (soon tired) note.

Good writers used to be able to produce tales that could be read at 10 years of age, then again at 20, then again at 30, and accumulating life experience would modify what the reader took from the story.

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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 29 November 2014 at 10:18am | IP Logged | 4  

The problem with today's comics is that there seems to be almost no one left in the business who actually understands how to write (or draw) good superhero comics anymore. Todays "creators" seem to think that comicbooks have to be either for adults only OR for kids only. When I was growing up, comicbooks were pretty much just comicbooks. Superhero comics like Spider-Man and Batman were made for ALL AGES. They were colorful and fun enough to appeal to kids, and had fast paced, action movie style stories, with complex enough plots to make them compelling for adults.

________________________

You hit the nail on the head. What's really sad is that when they do manage to put out actual layered all ages comics, they either lump them in with the kid comics that talk down to the readers or they lump them in with the Teen rated books. They even sometimes do this retroactively with older all ages CCA approved comics from the 70's,80's,and 90's when they are reprinted in tpb form. For example, the current All New Invaders comic from Marvel is rated T (Teen), but it is actually an all ages comic. The MC2 line of books and the aforementioned Thor: The Mighty Avenger comic were rated "A" (which meant they were suitable for most readers), but they were clearly all ages comics that were written in layers. The Marvel Adventure line of comics and the comics that adapt the current animated Marvel cartoons are rated "All Ages", but they are clearly written for very young kids (and worse, they write down to that audience).
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 November 2014 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 5  

We also have the problem that the troglodytes who are the loudest customers (and sometimes staff) at too many LCSs want only what THEY want. Anything not targeted for them is wasted shelf space.

This is @Pure Genius@ marketing, of course. Put the product in hard to reach, out of the way locations, and then stock those locations with the least kid-friendly, girl-friendly, civilian-friendly material you can find. And be sure to have that sun-faded cardboard Wolverine cut-out prominently displayed in your front window!

(Somehow, the Europeans manage to get this right, while producing results that can be jarring to North American sensibilities. Strolling down a street in Paris, some years back, I passed a comic shop whose front window had displayed right next to each other, an "album" featuring a woman being raped by a gorilla on the cover, and a Tin Tin collection! Somehow, apparently, those French guys were able to tell that those products were not intended for the same audience, and that to target one did not mean excluding the other.)

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Kip Lewis
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Posted: 29 November 2014 at 11:27am | IP Logged | 6  

Watched the "Kids react to the Avengers:
the Age of Ultron." When the Kids were
asked about comics their reactions were
enlightening.   None of them read comics.   
It was liked it never even dawned on them
to read Avengers comics.   One of the
older kids basically called comics uncool
while movies are cool.   Another said. "I
read manga, not comics." And another
said, "I get toys from the comic store,"
like the idea of buying comics hadn't even
entered his mind.

Edited by Kip Lewis on 29 November 2014 at 11:37am
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 29 November 2014 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | 7  

Perhaps once DC has been forced out to California, the new staff will look at how they've been marketing comics, have a WTF moment, and fix things. And maybe Marvel be forced to follow suit. I hope. 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 29 November 2014 at 9:58pm
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Darin Henry
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Posted: 30 November 2014 at 2:16am | IP Logged | 8  

Long time lurker here but this particular subject is near and dear to me, so here's my two cents.  

I bought a recent issue of Avengers (36) on Small Business Day. I want to add that Avengers was my favorite book growing up and, apart from issues 1 and 4, I own a complete set of volume 1.  I haven't read a new Avengers comic in over ten years, so what did I find in that 2014 issue?  Well, for starters, it contained zero action. Zero.  Apparently, characters are now required to wear their costumes in order to have long conversations, which seems like a very uncomfortable way to sit through a meeting.  The only powers on display were the supernatural ability to withstand wave after wave of dull exposition.  But it was non-linear so it must have been well-written, right?  Right?

To bring me up to speed, an entire page was devoted to a helpful who's who map featuring twenty different Avengers.  The only problem was most of the people on that map didn't even appear in the issue, let alone speak.  It was like asking me to navigate LA freeways using a London tube map.  In lieu of publishing letters from readers, there is now an entire page telling us who is responsible for making the book.  These include such vital people as the writer, the artist, the colorist and... the executive producer?  I'm not sure who Alan Fine is but apparently he's very invested in having comic book readers know he's important.

So for four dollars plus tax, I got 21 pages of story - well, prelude to a story - featuring a meeting about an ominous something that could possibly be happening sometime soon-ish.  Of those 21 pages, three were splash pages, one of which featured two bearded men walking forward in a close-up (that was the cliff-hanger!) and a second featured two other people looking up at a statue. 

Flipping through that book, it felt pretty obvious why comic book sales haven't benefited from the increase in film and TV adaptations.  If I'd loved the Avengers movie and issue 36 was my first Avengers comic, I can safely say it would also have been my last Avengers comic.  

Now most threads like this do a good job assessing the problems with current super-hero comics.  But a question that rarely gets asked is what to do to change it.  How do you make good old-fashioned mainstream super-hero comics that people want to read and, hopefully, buy?  I'm starting my own comic book company next year and that question keeps me up at night.   I have a few ideas I can share but I feel like I've droned on enough for one post and I'm curious to hear what others would do to fix super-hero comics.  Should they be cheaper?  Should they be longer?   Should they be lighter in tone?    Would having 3rd person narration be a charming throwback or is that just a relic of the past that should remain there?   Obviously, execution is everything but what would it take for a new comic book company to get your attention in a very crowded marketplace?


Edited by Darin Henry on 30 November 2014 at 2:18am
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Carmen Bernardo
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Posted: 30 November 2014 at 4:31am | IP Logged | 9  

   Many people are turning to self-publishing, including using the Internet as a place for potential buyers to preview their publications. It helps when you also take the time to visit local and regional conventions and have a few printed copies of your story to sell. In an age when you get things like that Avengers #36 that you just mentioned and all the other stuff that is happening now, seeing someone doing it the way it used to be done is a breath of fresh air. Even if it doesn't pan out in the end, it's worth it to find your stuff more accessible to readers of all ages in a multitude of genres.

   Give it a try.
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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 30 November 2014 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 10  

bought a recent issue of Avengers (36) on Small Business Day. I want to add that Avengers was my favorite book growing up and, apart from issues 1 and 4, I own a complete set of volume 1.  I haven't read a new Avengers comic in over ten years, so what did I find in that 2014 issue?  Well, for starters, it contained zero action. Zero.  Apparently, characters are now required to wear their costumes in order to have long conversations, which seems like a very uncomfortable way to sit through a meeting.  The only powers on display were the supernatural ability to withstand wave after wave of dull exposition.  But it was non-linear so it must have been well-written, right?  Right?

***

That sounds like the moment I consciously gave up (mostly) on DC Comics. I was still reading an occasional issue, foolishly hoping to find the magic comics seemed to have lost, when I bought the latest issue of the then-current (before the reboot of a couple years ago) Justice League series. It turned out to be 22 pages of talking. Nothing but talking! Not a single bit of action, not a punch thrown, not a power used, not a villain thwarted (in fact, there were no villains), just conversation. A book featuring the one of greatest assortments of superheroes ever assembled, and it contained not an ounce of action.

I tore it in half and threw it in the garbage. The magic, wonder, grandeur of comics, the feeling that used to set my imagination on fire when I was a kid has gone extinct in today's comics from the Big Two. And it's not because I outgrew them. You can't outgrow good storytelling if you still know how to embrace the joy of it. It's because they have no idea what made their product special in the first place, and now they're trying to cook with all the wrong ingredients.

That was the last time I bought a DC comic that didn't contain Joe Kubert's work. I still bought whatever he worked on until his death, then gave up entirely. I have no idea what the last Marvel book I bought was either. Too much wasted time, too much wasted money, too much disappointment.


Edited by Aaron Smith on 30 November 2014 at 9:51am
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Bill Sandefur
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Posted: 30 November 2014 at 11:25am | IP Logged | 11  

It seems that no one at Marvel or DC takes into account that many adults (myself included) don't enjoy being dragged down into the seedy underbelly of humanity in order to be entertained. Some of us actually like the more lighthearted, upbeat kind of stuff that used to be found in mainstream superhero comics.

A good example are the Disney / Pixar movies like "The Incredibles". I have a good friend who is not at all into comics, but the Incredibles is his favorite movie - and he's 45. It's one of my favorite movies as well, and think it is probably just about the best superhero movie ever released on the big screen. Or what about the Bruce Timm "Batman Animated Series"? That had a very large adult following, but was totally appropriate for kids as well.

Another good recent example is the recent "Big Hero 6" movie. I took my 14 year old nephew to see it, and we both enjoyed it immensely. It had a very distinct old-school comic feel to it, that struck a perfect balance of fun, adventure, humor, and excitement, with just enough of a dark edge to convey a real since of danger and menace for the heroes to overcome. My nephew, in fact, loathes new-school comics. Especially the modern art style. (He's a good kid).

Someone else who really understands how to do great action/adventure is Jackie Chan. Movies like "Rumble In The Bronx", "Police Story", and "Super Cop", are a total blast, and are filled with high-octane action and insane fight scenes. They convey a sense that the characters are in real danger, without relying on excessive bloodshed, and hardcore deadly violence. His movies convey a lighthearted sense of fun and adventure that make them appropriate for all ages without sacrificing complex "adult" story elements. It takes a certain talent to pull that off successfully.

So, when people argue that comics today are created for "adults", I say "which adults?" It seems "they" have decided to make comics only for one segment of the adult population that gets off on things like "The Walking Dead", which presents tons of over the top violence, torture, blood, gore, sex, and a distinct aura of pessimistic hopelessness. That kind of thing is not really my bag. I prefer my comics a little more fun, colorful, and optimistic. Like the FF and Superman when JB was doing them, or Roger Stern's Spider-Man, or the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League, just to name a few. Not dumbed down kiddie fare, just well written, story driven adventures that aren't bogged down with too much angst and deep interpersonal reflection. Uhg!

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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 30 November 2014 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | 12  

Now most threads like this do a good job assessing the problems with
current super-hero comics.  But a question that rarely gets asked is
what to do to change it.  How do you make good old-fashioned
mainstream super-hero comics that people want to read and,
hopefully, buy?  I'm starting my own comic book company next year
and that question keeps me up at night.   I have a few ideas I can
share but I feel like I've droned on enough for one post and I'm
curious to hear what others would do to fix super-hero comics.  
Should they be cheaper?  Should they be longer?   Should they be
lighter in tone?    Would having 3rd person narration be a charming
throwback or is that just a relic of the past that should remain there?  
Obviously, execution is everything but what would it take for a new
comic book company to get your attention in a very crowded
marketplace?
=======

I'd start by finding a way to get the price point as low as possible. If
you need to use a cheaper paper stock, do it. Glossy stock sucks
anyway, newsprint looks cheap, although I hear it's gotten more
expensive than some nicer paper. So, somewhere in between. I'm
sure there are many ways to cut costs that others know more about,
from paying talent, to production. Heck, I miss the ads. Placement is
key for artists but ads are a good way offset costs. Nobody uses them
anymore. Any ads you see today are for in house product. I miss toy,
video game, zit cream, junk food ads. Maybe ads aren't cost effective.
I don't know. What I do know is, about the time the ads left the books
altogether, the cost of a book jumped from $2.99 to $3.99.

The one place you might think about spending more, and do the the
research, is distribution. Is it conceivable to distribute outside of a
comic shop? Can you get your book on magazine racks in grocery,
convenience and drug stores. Even airport newsstands.

Content: All ages. Not kiddy, but all ages. Look at much of the stories
of the 60's -80's. You don't have to completely shy away from tough
violence, but finding a creative way to deliver it certainly is needed.
Some of the language has gotten disgusting. Make your characters
noble and earnest without being a parody.

I don't know if the audience has been conditioned to the point where
a third person narrator and thought balloons can work. But, for
goodness sake, please use speed and swoosh lines as well as sound
effects. If you really want to bring back a blast from the past, try
making story covers instead of iconic covers. Heck, that might actually
help sell a book.

The overall tone of a book should be decided by the character. I don't
mind a book a little darker in tone if the character warrants it. Batman
can get away with a darker tone. When Superman has it, his world
feels off. That's part of why the New52 Superman is a failure, IMO.
Editorial is telling us he's still the beacon of light for the DCU, but I'm
not seeing that in the books.
Make books you would be proud for a child to read but that your
40 yr. old buddy likes too. It's a little harder to write, but not
impossible.

As far as format goes, readers have been conditioned to handle
decompressed pacing for over a decade now. To try and tell some of
there stories in two or three issues and you'd probably get complaints
about pacing. I think JB hit a good balance by putting together four
issue stories. I'd try for 22 pages of story. Definitely no less than 20.

Now, how do you get the word out? Well, there is one new company
that sometime in the next year is going to put out four titles. To help
get there books into readers hands, there going to go very old school.
As I heard it, they will be putting there books on newsprint, doing
string bundles of 50 issues and giving them away for the first few
issues. Comic shops will be able to give them away free. It's either a
very bold move that will pay off huge, or crash and burn. But, I love
the idea and look forward to giving them my support.

One thing I'd do for sure is get copies into the hands of reviewers at
the major websites.
Ain't it Cool
Comic Book Resources
Bleeding Cool
Newsarama
IGN
C.H.U.D.
Maybe see about buying an ad on Comic Art Fans. Get your books
seen. Then, if the product is good, word of mouth will spread.


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