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Topic: Q for JB: CRISIS and after (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 3:51pm | IP Logged | 1  

The HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE two-parter basically retconned away those 'post CRISIS' issues from early 1986. 
Looking back, pre-JB SUPERMAN really needed to be 'blown up', and those last few issues were very unmemorable. I grew up reading Cary Bates' take on Superman, but a lot of that era is dull to revisit now. The '70s-80s stories by Gerry Conway, Len Wein, and especially Martin Pasko, hold up better.


Edited by Brian O'Neill on 30 December 2014 at 3:53pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 4:23pm | IP Logged | 2  

Pasko was an excellent Superman writer. Even when lumbered with dubious ideas imposed by editorial he managed to write solid stories.
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Matthew Wilkie
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 3  

I always read Marvel as a kid so CRISIS largely passed me by. This thread has got me thinking about getting the TPB but wondered if it made any sense read without the tie-in for reference. Anyone have a view?
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 4  

Only a few of the tie-ins continued directly from an issue of CRISIS(there's an issue in which Steel is sent into another dimension during a battle, and if you really want to find out where he went, you'd have to read that month's JUSTICE LEAGUE). A lot of them were 'prequels', with scenes that either led into the first issue of CRISIS, or more or less repeated scenes from that issue, with some added context. However, this became convoluted, as some of those issues went on sale several months into CRISIS, and anyone who'd read issue # 1 already knew where Fonebone Man 'mysteriously disappeared to' on page 9 of his own title, which directed readers to consult CRISIS # 1, while CRISIS # 6 was on sale.

And some of them literally have nothing to do with CRISIS, but have red skies and comments about 'weird weather' thrown in as an afterthought.


Edited by Brian O'Neill on 30 December 2014 at 4:59pm
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | 5  

JB:
Pasko was an excellent Superman writer. Even when lumbered with dubious ideas imposed by editorial he managed to write solid stories.


For me, Lana Lang's Barbara Walters-esque 'spoiled brat' characterization was one of the more 'dubious' ideas that happened on Pasko's watch, although I don't know how much of it was his idea.

Pasko tried harder to write stories that were somewhat more 'of their time'(70s), with layers of characterization, and action and pacing that were not too far off the typical 'action' TV shows and movies of that era. 
Revisiting his SUPERMAN run recently, there were some complaints from readers that he liked to insert overly-long recaps of the previous issue, a few pages into the current issue, and others felt that he had too many subplots 'percolating' at once. Yes, his stories just had more of a sense of urgency than Cary Bates and his typical plot of 'a weird looking alien with a lot of random letters in his name visits Earth, messes with stuff, and Superman needs almost all 17 pages to fix it, using some 'gimmick' that could have come in handy on page 3'.
And, for the most part, Superman's 'Rogue's Gallery' of the '70s was pretty lame: Luthor in his 'purple battle suit'(the one that preceded the even worse 'armor' of 1983), the cheesiness of Terra-Man(a guy who almost certainly couldn't distinguish between the pronunciations of 'the' ;-) ), and Vartox(ripped off from Sean Connery's Zardoz). 
Pasko was able to make something of that mishmash of villains, and also came up with some strong ones of his own, Atomic Skull, and the 'new' Metallo. He even made Bizarro into an actual villain, not just 'backwards' comic relief.
If Pasko had one failing, it might be that quickly-discarded 'Master Mesmerizer of Metropolis' story, which claimed that Superman unknowingly mass-hypnotized people(using Clark's glasses), which accounts for why the disguise manages to fool everybody.(But then, Pasko wrote that story based on an idea submitted by longtime reader Al Schroder III).

I haven't even mentioned Elliot Maggin's time as a Super-writer in the '70s. Too many lofty ideals, and too much emphasis on Krypton, and Superman's 'alien-ness'. Pasko's approach was more 'back to basics' superhero action.
One other drawback was that many stories of that era had to be interrupted so that 'Clark Kent could put in some time at work'. A good writer can find a way to get Clark out of the way indefinitely,so that he isn't holding up the action.


Edited by Brian O'Neill on 30 December 2014 at 5:20pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | 6  

It was an editorial mandate at the time that Superman spend time at the office as Clark and that Steve Lombard play some stupid prank on him that Clark must cleverly turn around.

It wasn't negotiable. As I understand it, you had to include these elements. These provided younger readers with a sense of familiarity as well as filling everyone in on the supporting cast every issue. 

For me, the Pasko stories were a golden era and the idea that Lana grew up into the character she was shown to be in those comics was fine with me. There had to be a reason Superman chose Lois over the girl who was just like her back in Smallville. Pasko did an excellent job of delineating the differences, big and small, that existed between the two women in Superman's life.

There's one issue where Lana throws herself at Superman because she can see that his romance with Lois is maturing and the couple is becoming closer. Superman tells her flat out that he can see that she's only out for the prestige and glamour of dating a celebrity. He angrily calls her a magpie, fixated on the bright and shiny, lacking Lois' genuine warmth and love of who he is as a person. It's a characterization a good distance away from Moore's "I would never hurt Lana," but it still stands as fair comment, I believe.

Of course, Lana is stung bitterly by this and disappears for a time. She comes back set upon making her own way and goes on to date Vartox and later, Clark Kent.

Vartox owes his visual to Zardoz, but nothing else, just as Terra-Man began as a Clint Eastwood/Burt Reynolds take and became something else entirely, mainly an ongoing jumble of Cary Bates' style gimmicks.

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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 7  

 Brian O'Neill wrote:
For me, Lana Lang's Barbara Walters-esque 'spoiled brat' characterization was one of the more 'dubious' ideas that happened on Pasko's watch


Yeah, I was NOT a fan of that direction for her, either. Generally liked Pasko's stuff otherwise, though.    
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | 8  

 Matthew Wilkie wrote:
I always read Marvel as a kid so CRISIS largely passed me by. This thread has got me thinking about getting the TPB but wondered if it made any sense read without the tie-in for reference. Anyone have a view?


You don't need the tie-ins at all; the main story is pretty self contained. Every once in awhile, an event would be initiated in the series that would be continued in a crossover issue, but it only mattered to the character, not the story, if that makes sense.

For example, in #11 Amethyst gets blinded by a shadow demon and Dr. Fate takes her back to Gemworld. That led to a major direction change for her book, but it was irrelevant to the big picture in Crisis.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 8:26pm | IP Logged | 9  

BRIAN: For me, the Pasko stories were a golden era and
the idea that Lana grew up into the character she was
shown to be in those comics was fine with me. There had
to be a reason Superman chose Lois over the girl who was
just like her back in Smallville. Pasko did an excellent
job of delineating the differences, big and small, that
existed between the two women in Superman's life.

SER: You know, something I really liked about JB's
SUPERMAN run was that Lana Lang was a "normal" Kansas
girl. She was the woman Clark would inevitably "leave
behind" when he moved to the big city. It felt rooted in
an emotional reality. Lana becoming a TV star or Pete
becoming Vice President diminished the concept of
*Small*ville. Even the Bruce Timm SUPERMAN series made
the same misstep with Lana the International Fashion
Designer.

Part of the problem, I think, was the Superboy retcon so
you had to give relatively glamorous backstories to Lana
and Pete in order to make them engaging supporting
characters in the Superboy stories* and there was a
desire to keep them around as "adult" characters.

So, without Superboy, Superman's history in Smallville
is much simpler and you can have the wonderful scene
where Clark takes Lana in his arms and flies into the
air.

(The obligatory 1988 crossover MILLENIUM retconned an
exotic backstory into Smallville, which was unfortunate
and best ignored. Although I think JB wrote some great
stories involving it.)
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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 8:30pm | IP Logged | 10  

If you must track down any of the Crisis crossovers, I'd stick to the Green Lantern and All-Star Squadron issues (either specifically marked as crossover issues or not, the year contemporary to Crisis for both titles were very much a part of the Crisis backstory) . GL due to the backstory of Krona and how it relates to the creation of the Multiverse and the return of Guy Gardner, and All Star to watch Roy Thomas pull out all the stops on plugging continuity (for good or bad) before Earth 2 became a thing of the past.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 8:33pm | IP Logged | 11  

Ah, MILLENIUM. "You have to reveal that one of your established supporting cast characters is a Manhunter. Your choices are Perry White, Jimmy Olsen or Lana Lang." Just like that, I knew nothing had changed at DC, CRISIS or no CRISIS.

I picked Lana thinking I could shape my tale so as to do the least amount of damage.

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Thomas Moudry
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Posted: 30 December 2014 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | 12  

JB wrote:
>> Pasko was an excellent Superman writer. Even when lumbered with
dubious ideas imposed by editorial he managed to write solid stories. <<


I really enjoyed Pasko's DC work, from Superman to Metal Men to Plastic
Man to Saga of the Swamp Thing—one of my favorites!

Edited by Thomas Moudry on 30 December 2014 at 9:03pm
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